Movement - the lifeblood of UT.

[NomortaL]

Guys. Before this project was announced me and several individuals created a toned down dodge jump for our UT project called Open Tournament. It worked out really well. It basically had the gravity of UT3 with the movement complexity of UT2004. The amount of floatiness(is that even a word?) was greatly reduced. Check it out for yourself. I personally believe that simple dodging and wall dodging is not enough. It's just not nearly as fluid as a successful dodge jump for long distance traveling. As for making maps larger to compensate for dodge jumping, if you tone down the distance a dodge jump can go, by altering its starting height, then there is no issue. The Deck16 map i made in this project is actually smaller than UT3/ut99's deck. Look at ut99's deck. The map is HUGE compared to the player and there is no dodge jumping. UT2k4 level design just did it wrong. Actually - UT2004 did not have this issue. It was the UT2003 maps that were ported to UT2k4 that were big. Rankin certainly has corridors of equivalent size to deck.

TLDR - tone down the distance of a dodge jump. Don't remove the feature. UT2k4's dodge jump literally made you feel like you were floating.

Open Tournament Movement. (Project now discontinued) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=275drT5hHXY

Thank you so much for the comparison video. It's invaluable to show dodge jump comparisons if we want to have this discussion. It's also been a long time since I've played UT and even longer playing it competitively.

The reason why UT99 dodging feels so right is because it's fast

Fast dodging means you are only in the air for a short time. This means it is harder for someone to predict where you will land and shoot. At higher levels of play, you can feel where a player may dodge in response to the situation and map layout. This is why I like faster dodges in UT99 -- it relies less on pure twitch and a little more on the thinking side. It's also more viable to juke players out with it being fast.

[SaunaCowboy]

Thank you so much for the comparison video. It's invaluable to show dodge jump comparisons if we want to have this discussion. It's also been a long time since I've played UT and even longer playing it competitively.

The reason why UT99 dodging feels so right is because it's fast

Fast dodging means you are only in the air for a short time. This means it is harder for someone to predict where you will land and shoot. At higher levels of play, you can feel where a player may dodge in response to the situation and map layout. This is why I like faster dodges in UT99 -- it relies less on pure twitch and a little more on the thinking side. It's also more viable to juke players out with it being fast.

Wow that names a blast from the past. Hello there nomortal (I went by Random54/Asmodia back in the day). I agree 100% with your post and the feel of dodging in UT99. No other UT game has matched that feel and have worked around it by adding wall dodging or dodge jumping. Put that feel back into the game, have wall dodging, increase move speed a touch (what can I say quake did something right) and done imo. Dodge jumping via mutator especially for CTF and Vehicle game modes for those who can't live without. Also make that mutator baller enough and maybe people will demand it's put into vanilla.

[Infiadux]

I really hope it doesn't have the floaty feeling UT2004 and UT3 had. The movement should be sharp, you should be able to change directions really fast and dodging should be low to the ground but fast. Wall dodges are fine with me, but double jump has to go - makes rockets and flak too useless. The general movement speed should be raised a bit maybe, that would be a decent compromise between 99 and 2004.

[SaunaCowboy]

I really hope it doesn't have the floaty feeling UT2004 and UT3 had. The movement should be sharp, you should be able to change directions really fast and dodging should be low to the ground but fast. Wall dodges are fine with me, but double jump has to go - makes rockets and flak too useless. The general movement speed should be raised a bit maybe, that would be a decent compromise between 99 and 2004.

UT3 didn't have a floaty feel it had a heavy feel (in a bad way). I think you should go back and play it again or maybe you were thinking of 2k3?

[Infiadux]

UT3 didn't have a floaty feel it had a heavy feel (in a bad way). I think you should go back and play it again or maybe you were thinking of 2k3?

To be honest, I haven't even played UT3 since my PC can't handle it. I have however watched videos of it, and from what I could tell, they basically made a normal dodge resemble a dodge jump, making you go higher and then "smash" into the ground. I guess "heavy" is a better way to describe it.

[Laokin]

The double jump ruined the game. I repeat, the double jump ruined the game. The wall dodge is fine... The double jump made it so you were on the outskirts of many of the non hitscan weapons, reducing their value, i.e. Rockets, making it so if you had a hitscan weapon, it was always the better option. This then creates a bigger zone, which increases the effective range of most engagements pushing them out and wide losing close range advantage. I think this is what ultimately make UT2K series so hitscan and mid/long range intensive. Also, too many hitscan weapons, too common to spawn them on maps, not enough skill weapons -- bring back the ripper.

The double jump also makes zero sense, I can jump up again on my way down, still in the air with nothing to push against.

The double jump is a bad idea. Wall Dodge, Dodge, Normal Jump + Long Jump to replace Dodge Double Jump. Instead of it adding more vertical velocity at the end by jumping after a dodge, just go full half life, crouch jump and make it a longer very linear and low jump with a small recovery at the end, like a longer forward dodge.

The recovery stops it from being abused, the linear low jump stops you from gaining bonus altitude to avoid or severely dampen AoE damage from splash weapons.

Also, unnerf the trans-locator, UT 99 or bust on the teleport disc.

UT 3 had it the closest to right [removing double jump, but leaving wall dodge] in terms of what you could do as a player with regards to movement options, the game speed was ludicrously too slow though and could stand to sped up by about 50-75%.

Game speed in 2k series was pretty good, but this was by in large the case because of the dodge double jump [long jump].

Again, I think the long jump was a great addition to the series, it's implementation was flawed though, because of the input required. First you had to dodge, and to get the extra length, you used your "in air" jump. I'd like to see it become one maneuver so it's not clunky, more intuitive, and less safe vs Splash damage, the trajectory of this jump should be low and lateral, not high and lofty. The extra loft of the original mechanic is was broke the game and made it a ranged hit scan dominant experience.

So in short, A combination of all 3 games, with all the features of UT2k series with the exception of "Air" jumping [double jumps] but refining the "long jump" in the process. Long jumping should only be possible after [x] amount of steps and only whilst moving forwards. No backwards/sideways long jumps. If this was tested in the early builds and was producing similar range issues as it did in UT2K series, it should be clipped, but I think giving it some more restraints and changing it's functionality a little fixes the problems that arise out of it.

In terms of jump/dodge height and air control, just refer to UT 99.

Slope jumping is something that should make a comeback too.

P.S.
Off topic
InstaFreezetag + Grapple should be a base built in mutator for CTF and TDM. Also the Chaos mod for UT99 GOTY should be built in also as a mutator. [This was Disc II of game of the year edition.]

[Squishpoke]

I love double-jump. Very satisfying and opens up new movement possibilities.

Take the TF2 Scout for example. One of the only reasons I play TF2 is because playing Scout reminds me of UT2k4/UT3. There's something about double-jump that brings forth a nostalgia trip for oldschool action games and platformers.

[darksinn3r]

In my opinion movement needs to be designed with animation in mind.
There are two (at least) perspectives: yours and the enemy's!
1. Regarding double-jump I propose the following: double jump needs to stay but will be used also as a defensive manoeuvre! I like to fly but I don't want to be killed in mid air .
The initial jump should be high, approximately 70% of player's hight. The double jump should reach at 100% which is double the high of the player's model.
It will be visually represented by a roll in mid air not like been propelled in mid air by invisible rocket busters.
This will force the player to land at higher speed than just falling. It will be like a nerfed downwards dodge but will allow you to reach higher just like original double jump.
2. The animation principle will be also applied into dodge. Your body will jump into 30-45 degree angle for 70% of your high then do a side roll in mid air equal to 1.7 times of your body high and then land the same way as you started.
3. I think that dodge jump should be removed.
4. Keep that wall dodge as it was!

[Ultron]

Whaddup, Sir_Brizz, NomortaL?

First of all, I agree with the OP that once movement is set, level design must be based around it, and this is the only time where movement can be experimented with. Let's get this worked out now, and then move forward.

I'm personally happy with UT99's stock movement, level design, etc. I'm also happy with UT2k4's movement, design, etc. If I were to have a compromise, I'd pretty much want everything as close to UT99 as possible, but then add double-jump, dodge-jump, wall-dodge, and wall-dodge jump (or whatever else - I'm fine with that). But if i were just limited to only UT99 moves, that would be fine, too. So long as we weren't otherwise hamstrung.

The issue I had with UT2k4's double-jump is that it basically reduced the height you could single-jump to make it nearly worthless. Pretty much there was nothing in a map you could jump on outside of a very small box, or start getting momentum up an incline, or to get you against the wall to do a wall-dodge-jump, or you pretty much had to double-jump to get decent distance.

To be clear, I had no problem with double jumps or any of the other super moves. If these come to the new UT, I'm down with that.

What I had a problem with UT2k3/2k4 was, just single-jumping only gained you (relatively-speaking) 4' 4" in height, whereas you could dodge 21' 9" in distance. That's assuming the default player is 6" tall in either game.

https://forums.epicgames.com/threads...rences-Part-II

[Melt]

Some good insights here, I agree with Ultron. The signle jump of ut2k4 was too useless and double jumping onto ledges etc reduced the speed of the game. The single jump and dodge of UT99 combined with the wall jump and dodge-jump of ut2k4 would probably be a compromise that could be satisfactory for most players.

Map design could then be used to achieve different types of gameplay, in small close quarters maps like Curse it would then be useless to dodge-jump and you'd be forced to use normal dodge. Just because it is more effective in that situation.

[Rohsiph]

My 2 cents: I loved the fluidity of motion in 2k3/2k4 with double-dodging, but upon reflection believe the core movement from UT99 made for a more solid design. I'd like to see wall-jumping implemented, and find the idea of adding a "long jump" as a separate form of dodge to be enticing, but I can say with complete confidence I do NOT want to see any kind of situational parkour elements a'la Mirror's Edge or Brink (I've yet to try Titanfall so can't say whether that is or is not similar).

I'd be happy with UT99's basic cores for movement, particularly speed and jump/dodge height as a starting point.

[luauDesign]

Just quoting myself from other thread since it's relevant:

I made this mutator for UT3 which increases the second jump height and makes it so you can perform the second jump at any time, not only at the perfect tip of the first jump. It also calculates it so it doesn't matter at which moment you use the second jump, the resulting height is basically the same.

Also added the ability to Dodge Jump (including the ability to perform the second jump at any moment, and no added restrictions to air movement for this move), Crouch Dodge (faster but lass reaching, added the teleport/spawn visual effect, also albe to perform a Dodge Jump from it, can be faster and reach further is perfeormed perfectly), Wall Climb (crouch dodge from wall, can be chained twice to reach higher places), Air Drop (crouch and jump while in the air, makes you drop quickly to the floor, added the teleport/spawn visual effect, to dodge air hits and to travel faster to lower places, beware fall damage!).

For all those movements to work, it disables your ability to toggle crouch, setting it to hold mode only.

It also increases ground speed a little, and if I'm not mistaken, fixes the size of the headshot zone for the sniper rifle (now it's the same size no matter if you're shooting still or moving, orignially the head hitbox of your target is too small if you shoot moving, and too big if you shoot still) and rounds up max HP to 200 (just because OCD), and also allows you to grab more Health Vials while already stacked just to deny them to your opponents. If it's not there it's because it's in a separate version of the mutator...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../UT2k4Plus.rar

Here's a bit of what is possible:

Wall-climb is more skillful and less pace-breaking than a ledge grab IMO.

[Techies]

Found two of my old mutators:

UGen2011

UGen2011 Movement. Online Compatible. Adds movement characteristics from UT99/UT2004 whilst keeping the core movement of UT3 intact. Dodgejumping is limited to "single jump walldodging" and gives about the same distance as an "ordinary doublejump walldodge".

https://www.mediafire.com/?enddx2q24581x1r

UT99 Classic Jump

Removed double jump in favor of UT99 style movement. Can still make all the jumps you could normally make with double jump. Can still wall dodge.

https://www.mediafire.com/?enddx2q24581x1r

Those are eventually the ones I stuck with. Had taken note of the importance of predictability and balance at that time. That's the solution I came out with at the time, the more floaty and freedom you had (the level layout became less important since you could just get to about everywhere) the worse the game became in multiplayer.

That's why a lot of parkour centric games today, just exclude combat all together.

[000tuvok]

I absolutely agree with everything here. Double jump and dodge jump have to go. They make the skill plateau extremely low.

lol this forum is already filled with idiotic blanket statements

[daRockReaper]

...
In my mind, we can add a new feature which is a "risk & reward" for the player: imagine a feature which divide damage taken by an opponent's weapon when you dodge in the direction of the shot precisely when it touches you. If you're not in the correct timing, too bad, you take the shot, maybe you should dodge/jump in an other direction. However in the other hand, you dodge right, and take a little damage. This mechanic can add a lot of masterize & depth for hardcore/competitor players and is not a feature which can reverse a game between new players. Plus, this mechanic could be only interesting against non-bursting weapon like snipe, or even rocket launcher because of the single shot (it's clearly insane to dodge in front of a gatling for dividing damage on one bullet). But maybe we could add some invulnerability frames after a successful dodge which could help more?

BlackMane
PS: sorry for my english.

I like this idea It reminds me of Virtua Fighter evades or fighting game parry but I like the idea of possibly taking counter hit damage from being hit on a air dodge your opponent anticipates for a short period of time. Adds a nice risk reward and is a bit less timing needed and a bit less lag altered. But, this does discourage air dodges in general. Maybe give air dodges a bit more distance than a traditional double jump to make up for that.