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Allow dodging without double tapping by adding an optional dodge key

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    Allow dodging without double tapping by adding an optional dodge key

    Double tapping to dodge was never really smooth movement to me, it just felt like keyboard hacking. I never got used to it, that's why I didn´t get into UT2k3/4.
    I am better with movement if I just have to feel the momentum and visual feedback from the environment which I react to.

    There should be an optional key that activates dodging while being hold down and making a movement in the desired direction.

    Of course movement would still require skill and timing to execute the dodges in the right spots/time. I don´t think it would make the environmental navigation easier or different. It is just another optional input method.

    Just in case: If there are pros among the forum who disagree with me, because they think only skillful players are entitled to advanced movements, keep in mind that excluding average players would result in UT dying out (Sorry, I played too much WoW. Self-entitled pro-gamers are annoying vermin in this game).
    If you are a reasonable person who agrees or disagrees with me, I will of course thankfully welcome your feedback.
    Last edited by Stoned Rhyno; 07-08-2014, 08:23 PM.

    #2
    Others have asked for this. The general consensus from what I recall is that people don't mind an alternate dodge key as long as the double-tap is also kept. I think Steve Polge also gave the idea some credit.
    "History is written by the victors"

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      #3
      Hammer-Boot jumps will be sooo easy this way.
      Probably too easy - no skill required.

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        #4
        Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post
        Hammer-Boot jumps … Probably too easy - no skill required.
        I thought so at first too, but I'm not so sure anymore.

        To be effective you'd still have to pick your spots and aim properly. You'd still have to precisely time the strike of the dodge key. You'd still have to dodge backward after running forward, so it wouldn't reduce the number of keystrokes, although it's true that having them on separate keys would widen the margin of error a little bit.

        My hunch is that a few middle-tier players, for whom a hammer-dodge was prohibitively difficult before, might find themselves able to execute it with a dodge key … but over the vast majority of the population, the "cans" and "cannots" will probably sort themselves out pretty close to how they did before.

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          #5
          I'm against this, it makes it a lot easier to time and use dodges. In UT99, as a mid tier player, I fail dodges a lot because:
          1)I'm standing on the edge of something and can't double tap fast enough, so I just walk off.
          2)I don't time my double tap properly and do it too early after just having dodged, and then I have to re-do the double tap but I lose some time.
          3)I'm running in a corridor dodging by tapping right arrow, but then have to turn left, so I have to turn my view, and double-tap left arrow. I don't time this properly and end up running forward too much instead of dodging left right away.

          These can all pretty much be easily done if there's a dedicated dodge key, because it's easier to time one keypress than two. At least, if this is implemented, make it not dodge automatically if you press and hold the key before being able to dodge again.

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            #6
            Anyone who says using jump and a dodge key together as well as the directional keys and the mouse is easy obviously hasnt tried it.
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              #7
              I agree that we should have an alternate mechanism for dodging. I'd love to see someone in the target audience for this feature experiment with what the appropriate controls would be.

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                #8
                Separate key for dodge is questionable - it's down to how many keys user have to deal at the same time and the hand size. One key dodge may be easier, however in a typical WASD setup there's not much easily accessible keys that could be used for a separate action. Dodge is one of the most used moves, so this has to be a key that easily accessible to most players no matter what how big their hands are. Otherwise the necessity to tie fingers into a knot in attempt to hit a dedicated key will outweigh any benefits. Looking at my setup I have Ctrl as a suitable key, but this really depends on your setup and how big your hands are.

                Here's a breakdown of my setup for an example:
                Tab - Scoreboard (hold)/ empty in UT3, average accessibility
                Caps Lock - Switch to Rocket Launcher, good accessibility
                Shift - Crouch, good accessibility
                Q - Switch to Shock Rifle, excellent accessibility
                E - Switch to Sniper Rifle, excellent accessibility
                WASD - movement, excellent accessibility
                F - Switch to Minigun, excellent accessibility
                R - Switch to Sniper Rifle, excellent accessibility
                V - Translocator, good accessibility
                B - Interact, good accessibility
                Space - Jump, excellent accessibility
                1 - Switch to Impact Hammer, good accessibility
                2 - Switch to Enforcer, good accessibility
                3 - Switch to BioRifle, good accessibility
                ~ - console toggle good accessibility
                F-1 - Scoreboard (toggle) poor accessibility
                Z - unused, poor accessibility
                X - unused, poor accessibility
                C - unused, poor accessibility
                Ctrl - unused, good accessibility
                "Yeah. _Lynx can fire the lightning gun, have the lightning bolt turn a 90 degree corner, stop and ask the closest teammate for directions, confuse the directions and get lost, realize it went the wrong way, make a U-Turn, and get a headshot on the intended target."
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by _Lynx View Post
                  Separate key for dodge is questionable
                  Keep in mind that an alternate dodging mechanism would not supplant or in any way interfere with traditional double-tap dodging. If it's not your cup of tea, just pretend it's not there, and keep dodging away!

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                    #10
                    I think shift makes the most sense here. Comfortable access and it's the defualt key for sprint in many games, so people are probably somewhat used to it.

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                      #11
                      I think it's fine only if that wouldn't be more effectife than double tapping (slightly less or equal is OK though).
                      I'm talking about moving dodges, for example in all UT titles to perform a straight-forward dodge you have to stop moving forward for a moment while double tapping strafe forward key, so you doesn't have any initial velocity. When dodging left/right without releasing forward/backward key you have some speed for more distance and can adjust dodge trajectory with your mouse. So, what I would like to point - if you can use "dodging" key to perform moving dodges without any initial deceleration to gain the same distance like perfect "diagonal" dodge it would be just more effective way of moving and it will ruin the skill of mouse adjustment(and it's not silly, it's a part of UT!). It could work in theory if you will have to press strafe key only after the dodge key to actually dodge, though... just be careful about that.

                      What about key binding - not a big problem with configurable controls. Shift makes sense in terms of accessibility and can be associated with some kind of special move, byt my shift is my Flak Cannon

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                        #12
                        yes it's probably too easy this way.. and if you really wanted that you can always use macro's.
                        i know this because in Bunnytrack ppl tend to use this cheat often.
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                          #13
                          One dev wants to eliminate dodge spamming and one wants to make it easier. I'm confused. I don't see anything wrong with the current implementation.
                          So what we want is to hold down a movement key and then hit a key on the mouse lets say, to invoke a dodge ? Still two key taps just separated. What will be done to discourage dodge spamming ? I like to dodge, this might make it easier for me, I'm just afraid dodging will be nerfed somehow to discourage spamming.

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                            #14
                            My concern is whether a dodge key will have an advantage over the traditional method, therefore forcing us to bind yet another key over the array of others needed for competitive play.

                            My thoughts to make it as equal or less:

                            1) Only allow the dodge key to work within the window of opportunity, i.e. spamming the dodge key during the time between two sequential ground based dodges will do nothing unless the key was hit just after that time-between-dodges period has passed.

                            2) Implement a time lag to the dodge key of 0.25s or similar, much like how the movement key is needed to be double tapped within the time frame to spawn a dodge.
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                              #15
                              hell no! I'd rather tap the same key twice then to have one more key for moving. instead of pressing the same key twice, we have to press 2 keys at once? Don't see how is that solving any problem, but honestly, is there a problem to fix? I think not.

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