Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Option to remove doubletap dash

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by jay43k View Post
    I totally agree with everything you're saying in this thread. Don't get this part though, what do you mean?

    What I was saying is that I do like you do, and set that double tap value extremely low so that I won't double tap dodge. Works great, if I'm on ground. But if I use double tap on a wall, that value doesn't matter anymore and you will wall jump. It wasn't like that before.
    maybe I'm misunderstanding you, there's a checkbox I found in the movement tab that basically makes it so you don't have to double tap to wall jump (no modifier or anything just, opposite direction of the wall while on a wall run with a single tap, no double tap, and no modifier); I haven't tested doing double tap with that check box off (it's on by default from what I saw).
    Tuned Chaos Studios
    Free Daily Bitcoins... because why not?

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
      maybe I'm misunderstanding you, there's a checkbox I found in the movement tab that basically makes it so you don't have to double tap to wall jump (no modifier or anything just, opposite direction of the wall while on a wall run with a single tap, no double tap, and no modifier); I haven't tested doing double tap with that check box off (it's on by default from what I saw).
      Oh okay, cool. I must have missed that or unchecked the box somehow. It is kinda weird with it unchecked because like I said, you wall jump with a double tap really easily and it's kinda annoying if you didn't mean to.

      I've been looking into various things like this to have on the control settings menu, I would agree that a simple box to turn off double tap completely would be nice for players that want it.
      @jay43K

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by jay43k View Post
        Oh okay, cool. I must have missed that or unchecked the box somehow. It is kinda weird with it unchecked because like I said, you wall jump with a double tap really easily and it's kinda annoying if you didn't mean to.

        I've been looking into various things like this to have on the control settings menu, I would agree that a simple box to turn off double tap completely would be nice for players that want it.
        Well, at the very least, more intuitive, you and I know that we can just set the timer super-low; but would a new player understand that outright? Probably not.
        Tuned Chaos Studios
        Free Daily Bitcoins... because why not?

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by jay43k View Post
          Single Tap Dodge is just way better IMO
          Exactly why it's too good to have no downfall.

          Originally posted by jay43k View Post
          FirebornFrom you mention that "it has always been that way" with UT in regards to this and some of the feedback I've received from vet players is that a lot of regular players just never dodged at all. Is that what we really want with UT4? I really hope this game breaks the mold and I think the community driven aspect of development really needs to figure out how to fight against the "Just make UT99 again damnit!" sentiment that a lot of old school players seem to have.
          I really don't have any sympathy for people who can't learn dodges let alone DTD dodges. You're exposed to the concept of how to dodge in the very first 5 minutes of turning on the past game's tutorials (this means all of them). People like this who don't have any recall ability on muscle memory (or memory in general) really aren't going to do UT any favors or have much of any potential as good players. This is not "UT99 or die", it's UT-2k4-UT3. It's a series staple, it shouldn't change just for the casual crowd.

          Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
          The modifier button to dash is the best solution to this (and I personally DON'T think it should be time-nerfed either). While yes, I appreciate the time and effort those who have spent the time to learn the skill, it unfortunately is not in the best interest for distribution, longevity, and popularity of any title.
          UT4 is already going to have a huge step up in terms of players. Do you know why that is? because it's the first FREE game in UT's series. That alone will bring droves of new/casual players. By making STD > DTD you have given the middle finger to all of the people who have better finger dexterity and practiced the skill. When you make STD always better, there's no reason to EVER use DTD and the move becomes worthless to even have in the game.

          Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
          My first concern for Unreal Tournament 4 is:
          New player picks up game; gets completely DESTROYED by everyone because they can't dodge effectively and then just quits never looking at it again.
          This happens regardless of STD DTD or not, people get destroyed by every weapon and quit for every reason under the sun. Shock combos especially. You will never make players happy by just lowering the skill floor because the game is "too difficult" to learn. This applies across every inch of UT. I don't believe in lowering the ceiling for the sake of lowering the floor for the casuals. I want both, and STD doesn't have that when it's only making the game easier with no reward to do DTD.

          Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
          Like I said; modifier key dash can still take some time to MASTER; hell I still fall off the ctf-face map using it sometimes... but I also sometimes have some issues with spacial awareness in games. And yes, I do use it, because the last time I REGULARLY played unreal was in UT2k4. So it's been some time since I've used any other method (or a dash/dodge at all). Like I said before; I'm out of practice.
          STD takes zero time to master because you just press a single button over and over. Where as in DTD you have to not only get the double tap timing, you also have to know the pauses in between the double taps to get the best movement efficiency. All of this is removed from the equation when you just spam STD over and over.
          Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-21-2014, 03:38 PM.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
            STD takes zero time to master because you just press a single button over and over. Where as in DTD you have to not only get the double tap timing, you also have to know the pauses in between the double taps to get the best movement efficiency. All of this is removed from the equation when you just spam STD over and over.
            To that I say..... GOOD!

            Double taps just feel completely awkward to me. And for people that I've convinced to download this new UT, they all want the single tap dodge and love it. Jumping around in this game is REALLY fun and if you find a tight corridor I think it's a bit crazy to need to be double tapping like crazy if you want to do a couple jumps in succession in a tight space.

            I don't think we need to continue discussing the merits of double tap vs. single tap as it's not even the point of this thread. Epic has committed to having single tap, and per the OP, I would simply agree that turning off double taps completely as an option would be pretty nice.
            Last edited by jay43K; 11-21-2014, 03:44 PM.
            @jay43K

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Numb.51 View Post
              Here's why. My friend has never played ut before, and I set him up the single tap dodge bind on his mouse, and he looked like he has been playing the game for 5+ months. This feature instantly turned a person who would have had to spend months and months building muscle memory to become a significantly more formidable opponent. Usually people quit ut because they never get the unintuitive movement system down. Single tap dodge greatly speeds up that by removing the frustursting learning curve.
              Exactly this. Skill floor effectively lowered.

              Originally posted by Numb.51 View Post
              However, I do think that single tap dodge should not be as quickly repeatable as a double tap Dodge. A double tap dodge is harder to pull off, so the reward should to be able to do it more quickly in succession.
              Interesting. I had contemplated slightly different dodge distances, but ultimately it works against lowering the floor when you facilitate an nonequivalent move. I'll explain why I think this isn't necessary rebutting another point in this reply.

              Originally posted by FuLLBLeeD View Post
              We should make people hit space bar three times to single jump to truly test their video game skill.
              Exquisite hyperbole. Delicious, nutritious, and still falls on deaf ears.

              Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
              but what you're saying is again, factually untrue. STD has a benefit over DTD that DTD can not compete with
              Oh the irony.

              Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
              If you don't believe me about the advantages, use it yourself and see how it fairs on the racetrack on STD vs DTD.
              UT isn't a race game. Dodging is an evasive maneuver that has inherent advantages and disadvantages. Making it's execution easier can get a player in just as much trouble, as it can help him out.

              Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
              Exactly why it's too good to have no downfall.
              There is a downfall, again false. Proactively dodging makes you an easy target. Accidental dodges can get you in trouble in various ways. There is a value to be had by giving your self that extra key stroke to reconsider a dodge. Requiring a bit more time to plan a dodge can make sure you calculate your dodge timing in line with planning, which can be crucial when seconds count.

              Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
              STD takes zero time to master because you just press a single button over and over. Where as in DTD you have to not only get the double tap timing, you also have to know the pauses in between the double taps to get the best movement efficiency. All of this is removed from the equation when you just spam STD over and over.
              1TD takes zero time to learn. That's what skill floor is about. Dodge mastery is the same regarldess of how the dodge is executed, again, because mastery has nothing to do with learning how to execute a move, and everything to do with why and when to execute a move, and in combination with what.

              Never mind the fact that this game is very real estate intensive for your keyboard. Doing without the 1TD also frees up a key. 1TD has disadvantages. I wouldn't use it at all if I didn't have extra mouse buttons, and still barely use it beyond testing, or for travel. I never use it in combat. Dodging inline with a forward run is a useful ability, yet even it has the disadvantage of not forcing you to look around more as you alternate strafe jumps, which can help with your general awareness.

              I had my doubts about this idea, but what I've found is that most arguments against it sound like people who feel that they are being slighted for having learned the classic dodge "so well." Yet in the same breath, will harp on about "how easy it is" how "unnecessary facilitating is", and "How they have no sympathy for any player who can't stick it out and learn these mechanics." It's just like the anti pickup timer guys. As if these out dated mechanics are some rite of passage.

              If a mechanic lowers the floor, and doesn't move the ceiling, that simply means a wider player base, and new potential talent in the arena, which is exactly what we want. This doesn't lower the ceiling.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

              Comment


                #22
                Going to skip over everything on people arguing to keep STD > DTD. STD can stay but DTD should be the superior move.

                Go watch the streams when Epic is is discussing Sprint vs Dodge spam. The general quote is "We want sprint to be easy, but dodge spam to be better so pro players have an edge".
                Now put this in context of STD vs DTD and the same argument applies. STD is easier, but DTD is NOT better because there is no edge to using DTD.
                Give DTD the edge over STD and you'll have an easier game with a higher skill ceiling not just one or the other.

                As far as "Epic committing to it" I wouldn't get too comfortable because nothing at all is set in stone. This is PRE-ALPHA movement changes happen constantly and we had a "committed" boostdodge for a good while. It's gone now. STD is something Epic is experimenting with, it's not something that has no chance of being changed.
                Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-21-2014, 04:59 PM.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                  Going to skip over everything on people arguing to keep STD > DTD. STD can stay but DTD should be the superior move.
                  That just negates using STD at all and requires people to DTD to be competitive, Id prefer to see double tap get replaced by something better if we have the (in your own words) easier better STD already. Dodge jump is sometimes referred to as a double dodge so theres that and thats all without needing a jump button entirely.
                  Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                    That just negates using STD at all
                    No it doesn't. STD would be the easier version of dodging, while DTD is the more advanced version of dodging. Look at sprint (easy) vs dodge. It's the same argument that skill should trump easy to do otherwise it's useless. It's straight up bad game design for you to make options that are never used. No one would use DTD if STD remains unchanged.

                    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                    Id prefer to see double tap get replaced by something better if we have the (in your own words) easier better STD already.
                    Already been on my mind about several things to do about this, everyone is freaking out about me "removing STD" and only once did I say it should go. I've said INSTEAD that it shouldn't be just an easy-mode dodge and there should be drawbacks as well if there's bonuses. STD only has bonuses and NO drawbacks. But how can i possibly forget that no one on the forum reads posts without warped ideas made up in their head that have nothing to do with the posts? This is pretty much true 99% of the time.

                    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                    Dodge jump is sometimes referred to as a double dodge so theres that and thats all without needing a jump button entirely.
                    Dodge jump is not remotely like a double dodge, don't let UT99 fanatics brainwash you about that. In DTD x2 you have a pause between your moves, while DJ is one fluid motion. This is why they say no one would DTD x2 if you have DJ, the pretty much same thing applies to STD vs DTD that there's less of a pause so DTD is worthless in comparison.
                    Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-22-2014, 12:57 PM.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                      Dodge jump is not remotely like a double dodge, don't let UT99 fanatics brainwash you about that.
                      You lost me! Basically Im just saying if some people dont want double tap, instead of nerfing what seems to be the superior option why not just add onto it with even more advanced movement than the aging DTD. A double tap doesnt always mean a dodge so be very careful how you interpret things yourself, what I said was, double tap whilst holding the dodge key (as in STD) could become dodge jump without the need for a jump button but it would be more like a double dodge without hitting the ground. Im not actually persuaded by players from either camp so I have no idea where you got that from, Im independent and dont represent anyone but myself.
                      Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Lol, i started smiling when i noticed how this thread is filled with STD's. Haha, get it?

                        I'm all for doubletapdodge, the way it was always.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                          You lost me! Basically Im just saying if some people dont want double tap, instead of nerfing what seems to be the superior option why not just add onto it with even more advanced movement than the aging DTD
                          DJ and DBJ is an additive advanced movement. I know theres "accidents" on when you dodge or not, but this is not a hard concept to learn and it's not an automatic trigger like STWD.

                          Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                          double tap whilst holding the dodge key (as in STD) could become dodge jump without the need for a jump button but it would be more like a double dodge without hitting the ground. Im not actually persuaded by players from either camp so I have no idea where you got that from, Im independent and dont represent anyone but myself.
                          DTD becoming like a DJ would indeed make it the superior version which falls in line with me saying STD shouldn't be superior but then we might be right back to square one in the first place with a long Dodge essentially being a DJ. DJ is pretty long, which is why people hate on it so much.

                          Regardless since STD people have gone off the deep end more so than 2k4 fans losing DJ and DBJ I'm just gunna make a new thread on what I think is a good compromise. Then merge that idea with my taps thread.
                          See you there!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I don't have time to read up on this right now; but I'm actually glad I've created a rather solid debate here.
                            Tuned Chaos Studios
                            Free Daily Bitcoins... because why not?

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
                              I don't have time to read up on this right now; but I'm actually glad I've created a rather solid debate here.
                              Well I think your request is a rather valid one, right now there are so many different input options and how the defaults are is no where near representative of the possible permutations. I personally like the ability to dodge forward whilst moving and dont really use DTD as much as I could because of how far you travel, I end up getting stuck on walls and forget I can simply tap back off the wall but the thing there is a STWD is even more super so I get flung all the way back over when playing on the tighter DM maps.
                              Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Alright so I've read up there's still plenty of points that are quite valid, ultimately as I said, at the very least I feel single tap dash still takes a bit of time to truly master (or at least spacial awareness in the game in combination with it).

                                But now I'd like to go more into some people's personal matters; what about people with limited motor skills? Or just don't have that kind of dexterity? Do you want to increase their crippling situation just because, say, their brains don't fire all the right neurons due to some degenerative disease? Or even the people with muscular problems, even crooked fingers for whatever reason that makes it extremely uncomfortable (or even painful) to do things in that manner but they still wish to game? How about people with parkinsons could shake to the point of triggering a dodge when they don't want to because they doubletap uncontrollably? What says their bodies just plain CAN'T handle the double tap dodge? Or vice versa? I don't want these people alienated too.

                                You're right, there will be a lot of players because it will be free to play. I've been playing Free to Play for a very long time now, and ultimately here's what I see in most of them (I don't have time to make images right now, but please feel free to visualize or come up with these graphs).

                                On Launch: Huge drive up in population (possible some fall off here or there, but it comes to a peak). These people play this exclusively for say... a week, then they start to fall off, slowly but surely and eventually we get back to the number of active players that we have right now (during pre-alpha). Because they just can't "get it" for the DTD (or a number of other possibilities, I'm not saying this is the only possibility).

                                Now losing players will always be an inevitability, we won't avoid that. But I would rather there be a drop of players that is slower or equal to the gain at this point. Creating either equal or greater new player numbers as time goes on.

                                So, then I must ask; how many recent games OF THE POPULARITY OF UT99-UT2K4 (UT3 did not have very high popularity compared to the others from what I saw, though the UDK and Unreal 3 Engine did quite well), have had double tap dodge and how many NEW (and YOUNGER) gamers have had the experience to be able to keep up with that? Then I ask, how many have had single tap dodge, and lastly, how many have had dodge at all?

                                The overall answer to those questions is "not many" (at least from what I have seen). This is why most of the community I operate in who DID play UT99 and other iterations are out of practice on DTD, because there's been no other titles that really create this possibility or option, plus, it's been almost 10 years since UT2k4, seriously, we're going to have new players who WEREN'T EVEN BORN at UT99 (I know M rating because of blood and gore, but I played Duke Nukem 3D when I was 8... so... there's going to be that age).

                                Quite literally there will be children, who pick up this game, who have never even HEARD of a double tap dodge (possibly unless Unreal 3 if maybe someone did introduce them to that). There may be a parent who wishes to play a game with their child (like my father did) and want to have the nostalgic times they had in Unreal but in a new title, and put this on a couple computers to play with them; and the child basically gives the "this sucks" because they can't learn the dodge right and gives up.

                                There are way more situations and examples where double tap dodge doesn't exist in recent games than it does and while many of us have grown up playing games (I'm almost 30 now), and were introduced at a young age to them, and know double-tap-dodge, those who are younger and those of us who are parents (I am not... yet), will have children who don't even know that a double-tap-dodge exists.

                                What you're telling me is those people shouldn't play at all? I'm all for "the better player gets the reward" and not the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude (Hell it's how I grew up and I feel like I'm the last generation where the losers got nothing no matter what). But I at least want everyone to be able to play. Evolving with the times is a necessity in all things, understanding and accepting that is a fact of life.
                                Last edited by FlyingMongoose; 11-25-2014, 12:09 PM.
                                Tuned Chaos Studios
                                Free Daily Bitcoins... because why not?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X