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    #31
    I can name acouple, Neverwinter and Loadout both have double taps but one is a dodge-roll and the other (in Neverwinters case) is a dash for the ranger/rogue but varies from class to class. That being said both games offer alternative ways to perform this move with a context jump key or a single tap modifier key you hold. Odds on people playing these two and UT are pretty slim as they are so wildly varying, the reason I have is because Im eclectic.

    I largely share your view, I have such fond memory of the DTD and UT, they will always be a part of what I take with me into any game or game development but I understand that there are possible alternatives. I just like to keep myself open to those by not holding on too tightly to the past
    Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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      #32
      Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
      Go watch the streams when Epic is is discussing Sprint vs Dodge spam. The general quote is "We want sprint to be easy, but dodge spam to be better so pro players have an edge".
      Umm... please point to where they have said this. Everything I remember them saying on the subject, and all of their actions towards sprint balance lead me to believe that Epic wants sprint to be objectively superior to dodge spam in every way with the only marginal downside being the ramp up time.
      Now put this in context of STD vs DTD and the same argument applies. STD is easier, but DTD is NOT better because there is no edge to using DTD.
      There is, though, as many others have pointed out. DTD is better to use in battle because it's attached to your movement keys. There are plenty of other scenarios where DTD makes more sense, like dodge-weapon boost-jumping.Any time when it adds too much dexterity to also push the STD key, which I find many scenarios for. It still requires finesse.
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        #33
        Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
        Umm... please point to where they have said this..
        It was during one of the QA sessions on an old stream back when everyone hated sprint. I'm not going to go back to play every video and wait for it to be asked. If you want to do that go ahead, but it was still said.

        Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
        There is, though, as many others have pointed out. DTD is better to use in battle because it's attached to your movement keys. There are plenty of other scenarios where DTD makes more sense, like dodge-weapon boost-jumping.Any time when it adds too much dexterity to also push the STD key, which I find many scenarios for. It still requires finesse.
        You're talking about subjective benefits not objective ones. I find STD weapon boosting to be just as easy, or even easier than STD weapon jumps. There is no such thing about DTD objective over STD because it comes down to your preference and old muscle memory. I have absolutely no problem using STD or DTD interchanably and it doesn't increase my efficiency one bit to use DTD instead of STD. It's just a different motion on your fingers.

        Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
        But now I'd like to go more into some people's personal matters; what about people with limited motor skills? Or just don't have that kind of dexterity? Do you want to increase their crippling situation just because, say, their brains don't fire all the right neurons due to some degenerative disease? Or even the people with muscular problems, even crooked fingers for whatever reason that makes it extremely uncomfortable (or even painful) to do things in that manner but they still wish to game? How about people with parkinsons could shake to the point of triggering a dodge when they don't want to because they doubletap uncontrollably? What says their bodies just plain CAN'T handle the double tap dodge? Or vice versa? I don't want these people alienated too.
        This is probably the only actual point anyone has made about STD staying as just a alternative DTD. Finger dexterity is a thing that not everyone has, even though theres just as competitive games with extremely high finger dexterity like StarCraft. I don't find DTD to be anything remotely demanding, it feels pretty much within the same exact concept as double tapping to dash in every traditional game except you only move in bursts. Games now a days have a button to dash instead of double tapping, so should there be a single button to dodge? Debatable. Is it the double-tap motion that's iconic to UT or is it the dodge end result that's iconic? I would say it's the dodge. So if we're weighing all options against eachother for new vs vet, youngest and oldest then STD should stay as an alternative.

        My main points on 'attacking' STD is how it has made DTD into being an older useless mechanic and if you look at pretty much every game that has a single button to dash, they never have an alternative method. Because creating something just to have it be unused is poor design. Which is why I wanted to separate STD and DTD into different but similar results.
        Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-25-2014, 03:10 PM.

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          #34
          Single-tap dodge is very useful alright, I did this as a client mod way back in Unreal1, where you would hold 'Shift' and then you would dodge in the current direction you were moving - worked very nicely.

          Funny thing was, the way I implemented it, accidentally bypassed the clientside cooldown timer, and you got a significant speed boost by dodging very fast (so ya, didn't end up using this as it was unfair)

          It's worth implementing (with a proper serverside cooldown), even if just for the fact that it's possible for players to achieve with scripts anyway; if everyone has the option, nobody can have a special advantage through using scripts/cheats.


          I will say though, that mastering the complex dodge/trick-jump combinations/acrobatics that you would find in UT2004 trial maps, was very fun to pull off in regular games, to get an edge - being able to shield-jump up a lift, then shield-dodge-jump off a wall, to fly half-way across the map, was a fun thing to master

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            #35
            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
            It was during one of the QA sessions on an old stream back when everyone hated sprint. I'm not going to go back to play every video and wait for it to be asked. If you want to do that go ahead, but it was still said.
            I don't agree with you that it was said. Epic doesn't like dodge spam. They have said this numerous times. I doubt they would balance anything specifically for dodge spam.
            You're talking about subjective benefits not objective ones. I find STD weapon boosting to be just as easy, or even easier than STD weapon jumps. There is no such thing about DTD objective over STD because it comes down to your preference and old muscle memory. I have absolutely no problem using STD or DTD interchanably and it doesn't increase my efficiency one bit to use DTD instead of STD. It's just a different motion on your fingers.
            Of course they are, the point is that the fact that one can be seen as more useful in a certain situation for some people means that both methods are effective. You don't need to remove STD or DTD.
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              #36
              Control interface in a game is an ergonomic issue, which will be subjective. Any move in this game could be replaced with a single button execution, and it would do no harm to the game, it would only increase accessibility. Whether or not a move is balanced in the context of the game should be completely disconnected from how it's executed.

              Imagine how useless this conversation would be if brain wave input device technology was further along...
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                #37
                Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                Control interface in a game is an ergonomic issue, which will be subjective. Any move in this game could be replaced with a single button execution, and it would do no harm to the game, it would only increase accessibility. Whether or not a move is balanced in the context of the game should be completely disconnected from how it's executed.

                Imagine how useless this conversation would be if brain wave input device technology was further along...
                Or better yet playing in the Holodeck or the Matrix.

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                  #38
                  I understand the desire to separate and distinguish the two, but ultimately the situation in which I pointed out provides an example in which one (or the other) should not be any better in what they provide than each other, else you're creating an increased crippling effect for those people who just can't do it one way or the other.

                  Plus all I really wanted in the first place was a UI option that's a check box instead of reducing the timer to beyond typical human dexterity and speed (0.0 seconds is pretty hard to hit on a double-tap)
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