Option to remove doubletap dash

[FlyingMongoose]

Basically the biggest complaint when the community I play with played for a couple hours this weekend was a situation in which double tap dash was being triggered too much. Most of us like to use the modifier key anyway.

We'd like to see the ability to outright turn off double-tap dodge or dash. (Of course don't allow this without the modifier key being set).

I'm obviously not saying take it away entirely, a lot of people do use it in this manner, I just want to be able to turn it off if I use the modifier key.

[Fjaru]

I have set my dodge doubleclick time to 0 in the controls movement tab and that seems to have disabled the doubleclick dodge feature.

[FlyingMongoose]

I was thinking a bit more concise ( a single check box ) might be better, but that's a good temporary solution.

[FirebornForm]

Sounds like people you play with never have touched a UT game before. If you just want single tap dodge only then it seems more likely you want easy-mode console UT. Double tap to dodge has been ingrained into UT for literally the entire time of the series, it's the one thing that remains consistent across every version of the franchise. If anything single tap dodge should go so the game isn't so easy to master. I like single tap's snappier movement but I'm not kidding myself and I know that its 200% easier to do lowering the skill bar.

[Infiadux]

Sounds like people you play with never have touched a UT game before. If you just want single tap dodge only then it seems more likely you want easy-mode console UT. Double tap to dodge has been ingrained into UT for literally the entire time of the series, it's the one thing that remains consistent across every version of the franchise. If anything single tap dodge should go so the game isn't so easy to master. I like single tap's snappier movement but I'm not kidding myself and I know that its 200% easier to do lowering the skill bar.

100% agreed. Could not say it any better myself.

[Numb.51]

Fireborn, I dont understand your thought process. He never said he wanted double tap dodge completely gone. He just wants an option to turn it off. Reasonable? I think so. Considering its been that way in EVERY SINGLE UT. There's no reason to bash him for wanting "easy-mode" single tap dodge either.

With that being said, i just want to say that im a huge competitive 1v1 player and I love the integration of a single tap dodge. I don't use it at all, but it's extremely beneficial to new players, and one of the main reasons this ut will have a far greater chance of success.

Here's why. My friend has never played ut before, and I set him up the single tap dodge bind on his mouse, and he looked like he has been playing the game for 5+ months. This feature instantly turned a person who would have had to spend months and months building muscle memory to become a significantly more formidable opponent. Usually people quit ut because they never get the unintuitive movement system down. Single tap dodge greatly speeds up that by removing the frustursting learning curve.

However, I do think that single tap dodge should not be as quickly repeatable as a double tap Dodge. A double tap dodge is harder to pull off, so the reward should to be able to do it more quickly in succession.

[FlyingMongoose]

Thank you Numb.51 for following up.

But my reasoning is not so much that we haven't played Unreal before, we all have, I've played all the iterations myself but haven't played regularly since 2k4, but some of the community hasn't played since UT99 and are more often in many other games that don't have dodge mechanics at all as well and have a habit of "dancing" on their keyboards many times ACCIDENTALLY triggering the dodge when playing UT4 at least.

It's primarily because they haven't played Unreal as much recently, not that they haven't played it before or that they don't know how to handle it, they're just out of practice.

Also the "Learn it or Get Over It" attitude will, as indicated by Numb.51, alienate new players, not something you want for population in servers and longevity of a title, you should WANT new players to pick up a game as this helps keep a regular flow and keeps populations up, and, as stated, keeps new players playing.

We want UT4 to have a higher population than turnover rate.

Also, I'm not saying create single-tap dodge, the modifier key method is still multi-key presses Modifier + Direction, it's just different muscle memory. Personally I have this muscle memory from playing Warsow for a while. Double Tap Dodge doesn't have to go away either as many do still have this muscle memory as well.

We want new players to pick up the game and to KEEP playing it when it gets to the final phases, we don't want them to keep falling off the cliffs in ctf-face and just quitting because they can't stay on a map.

[FuLLBLeeD]

Sounds like people you play with never have touched a UT game before. If you just want single tap dodge only then it seems more likely you want easy-mode console UT. Double tap to dodge has been ingrained into UT for literally the entire time of the series, it's the one thing that remains consistent across every version of the franchise. If anything single tap dodge should go so the game isn't so easy to master. I like single tap's snappier movement but I'm not kidding myself and I know that its 200% easier to do lowering the skill bar.

We should make people hit space bar three times to single jump to truly test their video game skill.

[FirebornForm]

Fireborn, I dont understand your thought process. He never said he wanted double tap dodge completely gone. He just wants an option to turn it off. Reasonable? I think so. Considering its been that way in EVERY SINGLE UT. There's no reason to bash him for wanting "easy-mode" single tap dodge either.

Ah yes the [x] Dodging check mark burried in the player options. I always looked at that checkmark with scratching my head because why would I want to just remove any and all ability to actually survive in UT with dodges being critical to that. UT4 is the exception because for the first time we have STD but every other version was just dodge or no dodge for ever. And all I have to say is why was it even included in the others when it was detrimental to the game play?

On STD yeah, it's too easy. Something FuLLbleed can't grasp is weighing your options. All he seems to do is want everything handed to you. I have my own ideas for STD that will split it apart from being just freebie easy dodges I'll post a little later in my main thread about STDs and DTDs.

"Months and months" is pure hyperbole though, it takes extremely short time to learn dodge muscle memory. Mastery is a different subject but average skill with it is childsplay.

We should make people hit space bar three times to single jump to truly test their video game skill.

Well good to know your ability to discuss doesn't go any further than some 12 year old trying to argue.

[FuLLBLeeD]

Ah yes the [x] Dodging check mark burried in the player options. I always looked at that checkmark with scratching my head because why would I want to just remove any and all ability to actually survive in UT with dodges being critical to that. UT4 is the exception because for the first time we have STD but every other version was just dodge or no dodge for ever. And all I have to say is why was it even included in the others when it was detrimental to the game play?

On STD yeah, it's too easy. Something FuLLbleed can't grasp is weighing your options. All he seems to do is want everything handed to you. I have my own ideas for STD that will split it apart from being just freebie easy dodges I'll post a little later in my main thread about STDs and DTDs.

"Months and months" is pure hyperbole though, it takes extremely short time to learn dodge muscle memory. Mastery is a different subject but average skill with it is childsplay.


Well good to know your ability to discuss doesn't go any further than some 12 year old trying to argue.

I don't understand how requiring a player to hit one less button to perform the same action is handing the player anything? It's a matter of preference. You can hit a button once or double tap it to perform the action, and which method you choose to configurable in the controls. Its not lowering the skill bar or dumbing the game down. This isn't Quake Live "hold space to automatically bunnyhop" we are talking about.

You're getting upset at the most miniscule parts of the game that do absolutely nothing to effect players that have been playing for years, while at the same time help new players get into the game. This is the point Numb.51 brought up that you completely glossed over. This isn't auto aim. Its not regenerating health. Its hitting one button versus two buttons to do a thing. It's simple control functionality, and you make it sound like the entire integrity of the game is compromised.

The comment about making somebody hit space three times to single jump was directed at your "200% easier/lowering the skill bar comment". If requiring one less button press lowers the skill bar by 200%, surely requiring 3 will raise it by 300% right? :P

[FirebornForm]

You really jump around threads on trying to get your point across but what you're saying is again, factually untrue. STD has a benefit over DTD that DTD can not compete with so it does indeed actually effect players that have been playing UT and favors new players who don't like DTD. Not only can you change directions instantly with STD, you also don't even need to pause between STDs moving forward vs DTDs moving forward you do. This is because that's how DTD works, you don't hold down one button and press another ad nauseam. You have to DTD, take your finger off, then DTD again.

If you don't believe me about the advantages, use it yourself and see how it fairs on the racetrack on STD vs DTD.
This is should not ground breaking news to you, the BU podcast guys talked about this when it was first introduced and how it gives STD an advantage over DTD.

If I can hold a button down (STD) and tap a direction once vs double tapping a direction that's twice as easy and that's where the 200% comment comes from.

[jay43K]

Single Tap Dodge is just way better IMO, it is fantastic on side mouse button, and yeah I've set the double tap value to something like 0.01 so I don't trigger it. Although I've noticed in recent builds that you still always will wall jump with double tap no matter what that value is, and it wasn't like that before. I would also like to be able to disable the double tap dodge completely. It is something I have been looking into.

FirebornFrom you mention that "it has always been that way" with UT in regards to this and some of the feedback I've received from vet players is that a lot of regular players just never dodged at all. Is that what we really want with UT4? I really hope this game breaks the mold and I think the community driven aspect of development really needs to figure out how to fight against the "Just make UT99 again damnit!" sentiment that a lot of old school players seem to have.

[FlyingMongoose]

Okay let me iterate my point:

It's already possible as stated set the timer to 0 and use the modifier key. I was just asking for a UI change which I guess I'm in the wrong forum for.

But here is my personal opinion on the movement argument;

Do you want there to be new players?
Do you want new players to stick around?
Do you want to pick up casual players?

If you said yes to ANY of these (and you should), then you should not be trying to remove the modifier key method, unfortunately (yes, I'm saying unfortunately because while I agree with the sentiment I understand the general and even casual demographic out there).

Yes I have played competitively (not really high advanced teams or duels), not just in Unreal, but in other titles, counter-strike, team fortress 2, etc. I also played Warsow a bit which had the modifier key setting by default. I've been out of Unreal for quite some time overall.

See these are the 3 things that help the longevity and constant popularity of a title in todays market, the ability to quickly and easily pick it up, but have a level of difficulty to master. (This is why things like candy crush saga do so well, it's super easy to figure out, but really difficult to master... plus, you know... pay to continue bull****, but that's not something Unreal has a problem with).

The modifier button to dash is the best solution to this (and I personally DON'T think it should be time-nerfed either). While yes, I appreciate the time and effort those who have spent the time to learn the skill, it unfortunately is not in the best interest for distribution, longevity, and popularity of any title.

I almost feel like I'm comparing aluminum manufacturing; before we perfected it's manufacturing process aluminum use to be worth more than gold due to the amount of time and specialized effort it took to create aluminum, now, well, just look at landfills, the stuff is everywhere, that process is no longer in the best interest of the general population and those who spent the time learning it probably felt the same way as you feel in this argument, fireborn.

My first concern for Unreal Tournament 4 is:
New player picks up game; gets completely DESTROYED by everyone because they can't dodge effectively and then just quits never looking at it again.
Ever tried to populate an empty server in almost any game and outperform anyone who joins the server a lot? Most of them leave pretty quickly don't they? Because they do in my experience.

I'm not a fan of what for many can be considered "easy mode" either, but if it forces an alienation of new players and in turn the death of a potentially great new title, then it's not worth it to ignore the needs of the new player.

Like I said; modifier key dash can still take some time to MASTER; hell I still fall off the ctf-face map using it sometimes... but I also sometimes have some issues with spacial awareness in games. And yes, I do use it, because the last time I REGULARLY played unreal was in UT2k4. So it's been some time since I've used any other method (or a dash/dodge at all). Like I said before; I'm out of practice.

also jay43k, there's a checkbox in the movement section that lets you just tap opposite key of wall for wall jump once in UT4...

[jay43K]

Here's why. My friend has never played ut before, and I set him up the single tap dodge bind on his mouse, and he looked like he has been playing the game for 5+ months. This feature instantly turned a person who would have had to spend months and months building muscle memory to become a significantly more formidable opponent. Usually people quit ut because they never get the unintuitive movement system down. Single tap dodge greatly speeds up that by removing the frustursting learning curve.

This is a great point, and actually, didn't we 1v1 that one time? We played NickTest and you destroyed me. I didn't even know where or what the shield belt is/was. But you did compliment my movement because I was at least decent in getting in a tight 1v1 scenario and being able to throw move combos out there to try to stay alive or make the kill. =D I may not be a UT vet, but I have a ton of competitive FPS experience and single tap dodge makes that fast paced, high movement style of UT really fun, and really accessible.

I disagree about making double taps inherently better through a shorter cooldown. Then it's just pointless to use single tap because you're going to need to use double taps if you ever want to be serious about the game. Why force people to do that?

[jay43K]

also jay43k, there's a checkbox in the movement section that lets you just tap opposite key of wall for wall jump once in UT4...

I totally agree with everything you're saying in this thread. Don't get this part though, what do you mean?

What I was saying is that I do like you do, and set that double tap value extremely low so that I won't double tap dodge. Works great, if I'm on ground. But if I use double tap on a wall, that value doesn't matter anymore and you will wall jump. It wasn't like that before.