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  • replied
    I understand the desire to separate and distinguish the two, but ultimately the situation in which I pointed out provides an example in which one (or the other) should not be any better in what they provide than each other, else you're creating an increased crippling effect for those people who just can't do it one way or the other.

    Plus all I really wanted in the first place was a UI option that's a check box instead of reducing the timer to beyond typical human dexterity and speed (0.0 seconds is pretty hard to hit on a double-tap)

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  • replied
    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    Control interface in a game is an ergonomic issue, which will be subjective. Any move in this game could be replaced with a single button execution, and it would do no harm to the game, it would only increase accessibility. Whether or not a move is balanced in the context of the game should be completely disconnected from how it's executed.

    Imagine how useless this conversation would be if brain wave input device technology was further along...
    Or better yet playing in the Holodeck or the Matrix.

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  • replied
    Control interface in a game is an ergonomic issue, which will be subjective. Any move in this game could be replaced with a single button execution, and it would do no harm to the game, it would only increase accessibility. Whether or not a move is balanced in the context of the game should be completely disconnected from how it's executed.

    Imagine how useless this conversation would be if brain wave input device technology was further along...

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  • replied
    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
    It was during one of the QA sessions on an old stream back when everyone hated sprint. I'm not going to go back to play every video and wait for it to be asked. If you want to do that go ahead, but it was still said.
    I don't agree with you that it was said. Epic doesn't like dodge spam. They have said this numerous times. I doubt they would balance anything specifically for dodge spam.
    You're talking about subjective benefits not objective ones. I find STD weapon boosting to be just as easy, or even easier than STD weapon jumps. There is no such thing about DTD objective over STD because it comes down to your preference and old muscle memory. I have absolutely no problem using STD or DTD interchanably and it doesn't increase my efficiency one bit to use DTD instead of STD. It's just a different motion on your fingers.
    Of course they are, the point is that the fact that one can be seen as more useful in a certain situation for some people means that both methods are effective. You don't need to remove STD or DTD.

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  • replied
    Single-tap dodge is very useful alright, I did this as a client mod way back in Unreal1, where you would hold 'Shift' and then you would dodge in the current direction you were moving - worked very nicely.

    Funny thing was, the way I implemented it, accidentally bypassed the clientside cooldown timer, and you got a significant speed boost by dodging very fast (so ya, didn't end up using this as it was unfair)

    It's worth implementing (with a proper serverside cooldown), even if just for the fact that it's possible for players to achieve with scripts anyway; if everyone has the option, nobody can have a special advantage through using scripts/cheats.


    I will say though, that mastering the complex dodge/trick-jump combinations/acrobatics that you would find in UT2004 trial maps, was very fun to pull off in regular games, to get an edge - being able to shield-jump up a lift, then shield-dodge-jump off a wall, to fly half-way across the map, was a fun thing to master

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    Umm... please point to where they have said this..
    It was during one of the QA sessions on an old stream back when everyone hated sprint. I'm not going to go back to play every video and wait for it to be asked. If you want to do that go ahead, but it was still said.

    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    There is, though, as many others have pointed out. DTD is better to use in battle because it's attached to your movement keys. There are plenty of other scenarios where DTD makes more sense, like dodge-weapon boost-jumping.Any time when it adds too much dexterity to also push the STD key, which I find many scenarios for. It still requires finesse.
    You're talking about subjective benefits not objective ones. I find STD weapon boosting to be just as easy, or even easier than STD weapon jumps. There is no such thing about DTD objective over STD because it comes down to your preference and old muscle memory. I have absolutely no problem using STD or DTD interchanably and it doesn't increase my efficiency one bit to use DTD instead of STD. It's just a different motion on your fingers.

    Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
    But now I'd like to go more into some people's personal matters; what about people with limited motor skills? Or just don't have that kind of dexterity? Do you want to increase their crippling situation just because, say, their brains don't fire all the right neurons due to some degenerative disease? Or even the people with muscular problems, even crooked fingers for whatever reason that makes it extremely uncomfortable (or even painful) to do things in that manner but they still wish to game? How about people with parkinsons could shake to the point of triggering a dodge when they don't want to because they doubletap uncontrollably? What says their bodies just plain CAN'T handle the double tap dodge? Or vice versa? I don't want these people alienated too.
    This is probably the only actual point anyone has made about STD staying as just a alternative DTD. Finger dexterity is a thing that not everyone has, even though theres just as competitive games with extremely high finger dexterity like StarCraft. I don't find DTD to be anything remotely demanding, it feels pretty much within the same exact concept as double tapping to dash in every traditional game except you only move in bursts. Games now a days have a button to dash instead of double tapping, so should there be a single button to dodge? Debatable. Is it the double-tap motion that's iconic to UT or is it the dodge end result that's iconic? I would say it's the dodge. So if we're weighing all options against eachother for new vs vet, youngest and oldest then STD should stay as an alternative.

    My main points on 'attacking' STD is how it has made DTD into being an older useless mechanic and if you look at pretty much every game that has a single button to dash, they never have an alternative method. Because creating something just to have it be unused is poor design. Which is why I wanted to separate STD and DTD into different but similar results.
    Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-25-2014, 03:10 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
    Go watch the streams when Epic is is discussing Sprint vs Dodge spam. The general quote is "We want sprint to be easy, but dodge spam to be better so pro players have an edge".
    Umm... please point to where they have said this. Everything I remember them saying on the subject, and all of their actions towards sprint balance lead me to believe that Epic wants sprint to be objectively superior to dodge spam in every way with the only marginal downside being the ramp up time.
    Now put this in context of STD vs DTD and the same argument applies. STD is easier, but DTD is NOT better because there is no edge to using DTD.
    There is, though, as many others have pointed out. DTD is better to use in battle because it's attached to your movement keys. There are plenty of other scenarios where DTD makes more sense, like dodge-weapon boost-jumping.Any time when it adds too much dexterity to also push the STD key, which I find many scenarios for. It still requires finesse.

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  • replied
    I can name acouple, Neverwinter and Loadout both have double taps but one is a dodge-roll and the other (in Neverwinters case) is a dash for the ranger/rogue but varies from class to class. That being said both games offer alternative ways to perform this move with a context jump key or a single tap modifier key you hold. Odds on people playing these two and UT are pretty slim as they are so wildly varying, the reason I have is because Im eclectic.

    I largely share your view, I have such fond memory of the DTD and UT, they will always be a part of what I take with me into any game or game development but I understand that there are possible alternatives. I just like to keep myself open to those by not holding on too tightly to the past

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  • replied
    Alright so I've read up there's still plenty of points that are quite valid, ultimately as I said, at the very least I feel single tap dash still takes a bit of time to truly master (or at least spacial awareness in the game in combination with it).

    But now I'd like to go more into some people's personal matters; what about people with limited motor skills? Or just don't have that kind of dexterity? Do you want to increase their crippling situation just because, say, their brains don't fire all the right neurons due to some degenerative disease? Or even the people with muscular problems, even crooked fingers for whatever reason that makes it extremely uncomfortable (or even painful) to do things in that manner but they still wish to game? How about people with parkinsons could shake to the point of triggering a dodge when they don't want to because they doubletap uncontrollably? What says their bodies just plain CAN'T handle the double tap dodge? Or vice versa? I don't want these people alienated too.

    You're right, there will be a lot of players because it will be free to play. I've been playing Free to Play for a very long time now, and ultimately here's what I see in most of them (I don't have time to make images right now, but please feel free to visualize or come up with these graphs).

    On Launch: Huge drive up in population (possible some fall off here or there, but it comes to a peak). These people play this exclusively for say... a week, then they start to fall off, slowly but surely and eventually we get back to the number of active players that we have right now (during pre-alpha). Because they just can't "get it" for the DTD (or a number of other possibilities, I'm not saying this is the only possibility).

    Now losing players will always be an inevitability, we won't avoid that. But I would rather there be a drop of players that is slower or equal to the gain at this point. Creating either equal or greater new player numbers as time goes on.

    So, then I must ask; how many recent games OF THE POPULARITY OF UT99-UT2K4 (UT3 did not have very high popularity compared to the others from what I saw, though the UDK and Unreal 3 Engine did quite well), have had double tap dodge and how many NEW (and YOUNGER) gamers have had the experience to be able to keep up with that? Then I ask, how many have had single tap dodge, and lastly, how many have had dodge at all?

    The overall answer to those questions is "not many" (at least from what I have seen). This is why most of the community I operate in who DID play UT99 and other iterations are out of practice on DTD, because there's been no other titles that really create this possibility or option, plus, it's been almost 10 years since UT2k4, seriously, we're going to have new players who WEREN'T EVEN BORN at UT99 (I know M rating because of blood and gore, but I played Duke Nukem 3D when I was 8... so... there's going to be that age).

    Quite literally there will be children, who pick up this game, who have never even HEARD of a double tap dodge (possibly unless Unreal 3 if maybe someone did introduce them to that). There may be a parent who wishes to play a game with their child (like my father did) and want to have the nostalgic times they had in Unreal but in a new title, and put this on a couple computers to play with them; and the child basically gives the "this sucks" because they can't learn the dodge right and gives up.

    There are way more situations and examples where double tap dodge doesn't exist in recent games than it does and while many of us have grown up playing games (I'm almost 30 now), and were introduced at a young age to them, and know double-tap-dodge, those who are younger and those of us who are parents (I am not... yet), will have children who don't even know that a double-tap-dodge exists.

    What you're telling me is those people shouldn't play at all? I'm all for "the better player gets the reward" and not the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude (Hell it's how I grew up and I feel like I'm the last generation where the losers got nothing no matter what). But I at least want everyone to be able to play. Evolving with the times is a necessity in all things, understanding and accepting that is a fact of life.
    Last edited by FlyingMongoose; 11-25-2014, 12:09 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by FlyingMongoose View Post
    I don't have time to read up on this right now; but I'm actually glad I've created a rather solid debate here.
    Well I think your request is a rather valid one, right now there are so many different input options and how the defaults are is no where near representative of the possible permutations. I personally like the ability to dodge forward whilst moving and dont really use DTD as much as I could because of how far you travel, I end up getting stuck on walls and forget I can simply tap back off the wall but the thing there is a STWD is even more super so I get flung all the way back over when playing on the tighter DM maps.

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  • replied
    I don't have time to read up on this right now; but I'm actually glad I've created a rather solid debate here.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
    You lost me! Basically Im just saying if some people dont want double tap, instead of nerfing what seems to be the superior option why not just add onto it with even more advanced movement than the aging DTD
    DJ and DBJ is an additive advanced movement. I know theres "accidents" on when you dodge or not, but this is not a hard concept to learn and it's not an automatic trigger like STWD.

    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
    double tap whilst holding the dodge key (as in STD) could become dodge jump without the need for a jump button but it would be more like a double dodge without hitting the ground. Im not actually persuaded by players from either camp so I have no idea where you got that from, Im independent and dont represent anyone but myself.
    DTD becoming like a DJ would indeed make it the superior version which falls in line with me saying STD shouldn't be superior but then we might be right back to square one in the first place with a long Dodge essentially being a DJ. DJ is pretty long, which is why people hate on it so much.

    Regardless since STD people have gone off the deep end more so than 2k4 fans losing DJ and DBJ I'm just gunna make a new thread on what I think is a good compromise. Then merge that idea with my taps thread.
    See you there!

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  • replied
    Lol, i started smiling when i noticed how this thread is filled with STD's. Haha, get it?

    I'm all for doubletapdodge, the way it was always.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
    Dodge jump is not remotely like a double dodge, don't let UT99 fanatics brainwash you about that.
    You lost me! Basically Im just saying if some people dont want double tap, instead of nerfing what seems to be the superior option why not just add onto it with even more advanced movement than the aging DTD. A double tap doesnt always mean a dodge so be very careful how you interpret things yourself, what I said was, double tap whilst holding the dodge key (as in STD) could become dodge jump without the need for a jump button but it would be more like a double dodge without hitting the ground. Im not actually persuaded by players from either camp so I have no idea where you got that from, Im independent and dont represent anyone but myself.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
    That just negates using STD at all
    No it doesn't. STD would be the easier version of dodging, while DTD is the more advanced version of dodging. Look at sprint (easy) vs dodge. It's the same argument that skill should trump easy to do otherwise it's useless. It's straight up bad game design for you to make options that are never used. No one would use DTD if STD remains unchanged.

    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
    Id prefer to see double tap get replaced by something better if we have the (in your own words) easier better STD already.
    Already been on my mind about several things to do about this, everyone is freaking out about me "removing STD" and only once did I say it should go. I've said INSTEAD that it shouldn't be just an easy-mode dodge and there should be drawbacks as well if there's bonuses. STD only has bonuses and NO drawbacks. But how can i possibly forget that no one on the forum reads posts without warped ideas made up in their head that have nothing to do with the posts? This is pretty much true 99% of the time.

    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
    Dodge jump is sometimes referred to as a double dodge so theres that and thats all without needing a jump button entirely.
    Dodge jump is not remotely like a double dodge, don't let UT99 fanatics brainwash you about that. In DTD x2 you have a pause between your moves, while DJ is one fluid motion. This is why they say no one would DTD x2 if you have DJ, the pretty much same thing applies to STD vs DTD that there's less of a pause so DTD is worthless in comparison.
    Last edited by FirebornForm; 11-22-2014, 12:57 PM.

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