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Another take on movement (Long live the air control!)

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    #16
    Looks great K2.

    I haven't played it yet, but your video looks like it has the right "feel" to it.

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      #17
      K-2 I do agree with you that jumping is pretty much worthless in combat for what we've got in UT4 builds.

      Why not just call this for what it is? You're recreating UT3 movement as close as possible with the addition of UT4 multiwall dodges. The only time UT ever had this much snappy air control was in UT3, which isn't a bad thing but it's fairly recognizable. I would take this air control in a second over what we have in UT4 right now but that's because what we have in UT4 feels like trying to turn the steering wheel without power-steering. Aka an effort in futility.

      Double jumps - Epic has put their foot down pretty heavy on this being out, I like it in much more but I dont think it will be for the core.

      You removed sprint but not mantel? tsk tsk Mantel is unneeded if we have double jump.
      Last edited by FirebornForm; 01-24-2015, 11:56 PM.

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        #18
        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
        Why not just call this for what it is? You're recreating UT3 movement as close as possible with the addition of UT4 multiwall dodges. The only time UT ever had this much snappy air control was in UT3, which isn't a bad thing but it's fairly recognizable.
        That's true, I'm trying to bring it closer to UT3, though I wouldn't call it a UT3 rip-off with multi-walldodging. We already have somewhat diffecent scaling & basic parameters as well as rolling, sliding and UT2k4-style walldodge Z-override while falling.

        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
        Double jumps - Epic has put their foot down pretty heavy on this being out, I like it in much more but I dont think it will be for the core.
        Actually the main argument was that the one higher jump pretty much equals double jump and therefore doubletapping is unnecessary. I disagree with that cause there's much more about double jumping than just the height. I believe that double jump is beneficial for the gameplay while being native & uncomplicated, it just gives you more options to move around & dodge projectiles.
        Another argument was that there's no use for a single jump if you always could do the double. Well... I think that's not true either. For some people it's OK to use only double jump all the time, but it doesn't mean that single jump is useless it this case. Actually it's way faster to perform a single jump and then change your direction by strafing or perform a shorter walldodge. That's true that you would prefer the double jump most of the time, but for me it's like 60-75% rather then 90-95%. Also, if we would keep the mantling idea it would be even more useful.
        What about accesibility - I'm sure that double jump means no harm for the newcomers, it's even simpler than dodging. Back in 2008-2009 there was a lot of newbies in UT3 and I remember how they managed to survive long enough just with plain single/double jump combinations(we all know that UT beginners don't use regular dodges too much). The problem that some people don't know about double jumping at all has nothing to do with double jump mechanics itself, it's rather because of no precise tips & tutorials in UT3.
        If double jump wouldn't make it into the core game, I woluld love to hear at least more solid arguments from EPIC. To be fair - I thought that having just one jump is not a big problem at the beginning, but now I'm completely sure that it takes away too much and just can't be equal. It's not going to be as simple as UT99 anyway and it's kinda OK, but either way what's the point?

        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
        You removed sprint but not mantel? tsk tsk Mantel is unneeded if we have double jump.
        I can't remove neither, it's just the config for movement prototyper mutator. Just 9999 delay for sprinting
        Regarding the mantling - well... it's quite complicated for now, but I don't think that mantling & double jumping are mutually exclusive anyway. For now "mantling" is just a result of player's capsule collision and therefore it feels quite inconsistent. However I see some potential in mantling it if would be kinda reworked to feel smooth & without all that sliding. For now double jumping just allows you to use "mantling" at straighter angles to climb up more smoothly.

        Here's another video to point out some things that I'm talking about.

        Recorded on 1/9/2015 build due to mutator incompatibility with the new one at the moment.
        Last edited by K-2; 01-26-2015, 05:48 AM.

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          #19
          On the topic of DJ accessibly tutorials and people not knowing how to double jump. UT2004 did have a tutorial that taught all of these concepts so I don't feel like that's the issue. I actually find players are less likely to dodge than to double jump, simply because tapping the space bar in a leisurely pace is much more natural than quickly pressing a key twice. UT dodge movement has always been a bit unnatural for most people but if Epic is worried about "unused features" then I think the new mechanics pushed to whole different key functions are going to suffer much more than if we had a double jump. WallSlide and Roll I'm sure will be unknown to many players and it's still rare to see them being used even in UT4 playtesting.


          Maybe this time around we can have how to play videos more front and center but instead of mashed together all at once, have them be bite sized bits of information and separated categories. [movement][advanced movement][trick jumps][weapons][ect]

          Manteling is actually possible to kill in the mutator settings so it's not entirely just the capsule of UE4 that's causing it to feel weird. In the beginning we didn't have mantel in UT4 but Epic later came up with it and said it "increased fluidity". I never did look at the collision of the capsule with manteling off but it would be interesting to see how much it effects it.
          Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
          I removed Mantel. Just use this value and plug it into the .ini file.
          LandingAssistBoost=0.000000



          In my opinion, if we have double jump and dodge jump, that's already serving the purpose of Mantel. We don't need both but if I were to pick one or the other I would go with 2k4's moves without UT4's mantel. In a good deal of cases, having both makes the map even more flow-broken than having everything at once.

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            #20
            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
            UT dodge movement has always been a bit unnatural for most people but if Epic is worried about "unused features" then I think the new mechanics pushed to whole different key functions are going to suffer much more than if we had a double jump. WallSlide and Roll I'm sure will be unknown to many players and it's still rare to see them being used even in UT4 playtesting.
            Agree on that. I keep forgetting that rolling & wallslide even exists every time I launch UT and if otherwise I also don't find it particularly useful. I'm just worrying if DJ mechanics would be completely ignored by EPIC for sake of weird & unintuitive features. It really brings more variety while being so simple - easy to learn & hard to master. Why is it a bad thing?

            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
            Maybe this time around we can have how to play videos more front and center but instead of mashed together all at once, have them be bite sized bits of information and separated categories. [movement][advanced movement][trick jumps][weapons][ect]
            Yeah, that would be better. I also think it should be kinda interactive tutorial levels insead of just videos.

            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
            We don't need both but if I were to pick one or the other I would go with 2k4's moves without UT4's mantel. In a good deal of cases, having both makes the map even more flow-broken than having everything at once.
            Maybe you're right about that... I should give it more testing. However I still think that mantling is not the most terrible thing we have at the moment and possibly it could be tweaked to work with DJ smoothly without messing up the balance, especially if we wouldn't go with 2k4's height of the jump.
            Last edited by K-2; 01-26-2015, 12:20 AM.

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              #21
              Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
              tsk tsk Mantel is unneeded if we have double jump.
              Tried to revome the LandingAssistBoost and yep, it feels better I just wasn't sure about the key parameter for mantling in the first place...

              Updated for the new build with some adjustments. (5th is the correct one)
              Thanks to Sir Brizz for keeping the mutator up to date, it should work online now.
              Last edited by K-2; 01-27-2015, 12:27 PM.

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                #22
                I wanna see it on UT4!
                https://vk.com/dealenx

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by K-2 View Post
                  At last I saw a single well-turned movement concept which truly reveals all that freedom and potential of skillful movement. Fluid, flexible & consistent. That's what we need for a real arena-shooter. It is a really good concept and I wish Epic Games review it very carefully and consider it to be the starting point of a new game. Respect to author, well done!
                  Last edited by Lady*D; 01-27-2015, 06:03 AM.

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                    #24
                    The best movement I've seen in UT4. Approved!

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                      #25
                      The more movement possibilities - the more chances to avoid deaths and more tactical solutions.
                      I understand that Epic wants a game feel like classics, but it doesn't mean that ignoring movements from the latest UTs is a good idea.
                      I don't insist on returning dodge-jumps, but removing even double jumps makes the game more simple and random.
                      Thanks to K-2, hope that Epic will pay an attention to the topic.
                      DM-SpaceMiracle

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                        #26
                        Is it possible for EPIC to include this prototype as mutator into next build? It would be nice.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by [1337]`G#0wN3ff View Post
                          Is it possible for EPIC to include this prototype as mutator into next build? It would be nice.
                          good idea.

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                            #28
                            I need to give the updated settings a try, last time I thought raxxy's was overall better except the slightly excessive wall dodge and that it doesn't have double jump (not necessarily something I wouldn't be able to live without but it's not something I mind having either ). Dodge jump though I definitely don't think is necessary for this installment and well then the default maps' scaling is already pretty off unless the parameters would be tweaked so the normal dodge is really puny which is not necessarily the best thing to do either.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                              The double jump could probably be tweaked to work. The problem is with the eye height, scale, etc of a game like UT3, most of the maps required double jumps to get on things that should only require one jump. That's a solvable problem.

                              I don't think it's 100% defined yet whether it will be there or not. I wasn't sure about double jump in UT3, but I actually like it there.
                              Then it needs to be 100% defined soon, so all of us who hate double jumping know if we need to forget about this game and move on to something else or not. Weaseling around about it is not going to help, it's going to make things worse.
                              Last edited by MoxNix; 01-27-2015, 07:34 AM.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                                Then it needs to be 100% defined soon, so all of us who hate double jumping know if we need to forget about this game and move on to something else or not. Weaseling around about it is not going to help, it's going to make things worse.
                                If that is your attitude I think it would be best for everyone if you left now. We don't need childish "all or nothing" bickering we need people who are willing to put aside their petty issues and come together to make a great game.
                                Last edited by Fly Dungas; 01-27-2015, 12:33 PM.

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