Another take on movement (Long live the air control!)

[MoxNix]

Still haven't heard a good reason from you yet about why double jump shouldn't be in the game. All you've given us so far is telling us how ignorant-minded past-dwellers such as yourself (and all the other idiotic people you speak of) don't like double jump, so it shouldn't be in the game. Please leave, and go back to UT99 where you can have all the basic, noobish movement you can handle.

There's no need to repeat to trolls what's been said a thousand times. You knew perfectly well what the problems with double jump are. What's funny is you're calling me an ignorant noob yet you don't seem to know that in UT99 double jumping was for noobs. About the only servers that used double jump were the worst noob servers and low grav sniper servers. In fact the noob servers turned double jump on because they knew no even halfway decent player would play with double jump. The only thing playing with double jump on did was get you ridiculed.

So keep pulling for your lame movement and call me all the names you want but just remember in the end the real noob (worse yet a double jumping noob) is you.

[K-2]

Would love to combine these jump settings with raxxy's dodge & acceleration settings, that would be pretty close to feeling ideal for my taste. Then you'd both have a useful jump + dodge for combat, depending on situation.

I think it's possible to try something like that and we definitely should at some point, but there are also some reasons why I don't push accel & dodge values up. If we look closer, the current ground speed & acceleration is already pretty close to UT99 and from 3rd person perspective the strafing is quite rapid. Actually it appears that 1st person perspective always feels a bit slower than 3rd person. We just need to keep that in mind to not overwhelm it too much and for now I think that default ground acceleration values from EPIC is pretty solid.
Regarding regular dodges - I've toned down the arc height a bit to make it feel more UT99'ish while making sure that distance is enough to cover the essential gaps(just requires a little more precision) & evade shock combos. Overall it reduces the time it takes to perform a dodge move so you can land & change your direction more rapidly. You also would hit the celling less often
Any thoughts?

go back to UT99 where you can have all the basic, noobish movement you can handle.

Let's not blame the movement, UT99 is pretty solid on it's own and has nothing to do with these people.

...you don't seem to know that in UT99 double jumping was for noobs. About the only servers that used double jump were the worst noob servers and low grav sniper servers.

I see, you judge it based on a doubtful mutator for UT99(which was never intended to have a double jump it the first place) and never gave a chance to the other UT games.

There's no need to repeat to trolls what's been said a thousand times.

Fine, we won't. We would just keep pulling "our lame movement" and discussing what would be better for UT based on experience & reasoning, we have the right to do that.

[RPGWiZ4RD]

I think it's possible to try something like that and we definitely should at some point, but there are also some reasons why I don't push accel & dodge values up. If we look closer, the current ground speed & acceleration is already pretty close to UT99 and from 3rd person perspective the strafing is quite rapid. Actually it appears that 1st person perspective always feels a bit slower than 3rd person. We just need to keep that in mind to not overwhelm it too much and for now I think that default ground acceleration values from EPIC is pretty solid.
Regarding regular dodges - I've toned down the arc height a bit to make it feel more UT99'ish while making sure that distance is enough to cover the essential gaps(just requires a little more precision) & evade shock combos. Overall it reduces the time it takes to perform a dodge move so you can land & change your direction more rapidly. You also would hit the celling less often
Any thoughts?

For my taste the arch is set a bit too low, I don't think lowering it is necessarily worth it since it becomes bad for evading splash damage. Dodge isn't only about getting horizontally away from a shot quicker but also away from the ground to allow evade splash damage slightly bit, if you're going to hug the ground it won't work and therefore I didn't personally like UT99's dodge because it was too subtle IMO.

In UT3 you could even hit a rocket underneath the player peaking with a dodge and he'd survive.

[BorisTheAnimal]

Hi there.
Atfer testing this prototype I can tell that this one is the best so far.
First, it contains much more possibilities. At last I don't feel like my wings are clipped as it was before. I can move fast around the map like it was in ut2004 and ut3.
Second, I can now easily jump on high map objects without long going around trying to get onto them.
Third, double jump and increased air control let players move more tricky. I think it's a crucial thing in combat. I think this is an ideal movement psysics for ut4.
Awesome job! I like it a lot

[K-2]

For my taste the arch is set a bit too low, I don't think lowering it is necessarily worth it since it becomes bad for evading splash damage.

To be fair I've never considered dodge as a good way do deal with splash damage. I see your point, but I think it's either you evade the rocket completely just by horizontal dodge distance or jump instead. On the other hand when you deal with the shock rifle it's far more important just to land the dodge faster and be ready for a next move because of SR rapid fire. The more time you spent on a dodge move - the easier to catch you with combo before the second dodge. It's kinda when you have to chose between splash damage and shock combos and the double jump is OK to take less splash but almost worthless vs shock rifle so the dodge height tradeoff is kinda acceptable. At least that's how I see it. I'll do more testing with the higher dodge arc however...

[RPGWiZ4RD]

To be fair I never considered dodge as a good way do deal with splash damage. I see your point, but I think it's either you evade the rocket completely just by horizontal dodge distance or jump instead. On the other hand when you deal with the shock rifle it's far more important just to land the dodge faster and be ready for a next move because of SR rapid fire. The more time you spent on a dodge move - the easier to catch you with combo before the second dodge. It's kinda when you have to chose between splash damage and shock combos and the double jump is OK to take less splash but almost worthless vs shock rifle so the dodge height tradeoff is kinda acceptable. At least that's how I see it. I'll do more testing with the higher dodge arc however...

It's all about tweaking the height vs speed vs distance, the higher and the longer you make it go the faster it has to be. Of course if you make it go very high and very fast it will feel odd too so it's about finding a good balance. Also another thing which I liked in UT3 was how I could like shoot over boxes/obstacles and stuff while dodging due to the added height and possibly pick up a HS kill with sniper in some circumstances. Ideally I think it should be something in-between, the default dodge parameters were quite okay in this regard, just tiny bit too slow IMO which raxxy addresses in his version just speeding it up a bit since I cannot keep count how many times I've become combo'd as a result of too slow dodge, in UT3 despite the high dodge arc which is even higher than the default UT4 dodge height I found it far more easier to evade probably due to the high initial acceleration of the dodge, now you're dealing with a linear dodge speed in UT4.

We're discussing preferences here though since you can make different parameters work depending of the rest of the stuff is configured, personally I enjoy a very snappy movement that has high acceleration and no deacceleration which increases your chances of evading stuff. Others maybe care more about a "commitment" kind of gameplay where evasiveness is poorer and it becomes more important to predict etc. But UT4 currently has such a high weapon damage model that I think if that isn't going to change then the evasiveness has to be on a reasonable level because if players die too easily/fast it's no fun either spawning all the time, especially thinking of the larger maps in other game modes where it would become frustrating to walk a long distance only to get 1-hit KO'd by a rocket as soon as you encounter a player.

[K-2]

It's all about tweaking the height vs speed vs distance, the higher and the longer you make it go the faster it has to be.

Agree, but the time it takes to dodge(on a flat surface) defined only by it's vertical component. The only way to make the arc higher while keeping the airtime is to increase the gravity. That's also means that a lot of other stuff should be tweaked in appropriate way.

Also another thing which I liked in UT3 was how I could like shoot over boxes/obstacles and stuff while dodging due to the added height and possibly pick up a HS kill with sniper in some circumstances.

Well, that's a point. Though it's also related to map design.

it's about finding a good balance

That's the main goal for UT and I really hope we can make it at some point The more points of view we consider - the closer we are.

[FuLLBLeeD]

There's no need to repeat to trolls what's been said a thousand times. You knew perfectly well what the problems with double jump are. What's funny is you're calling me an ignorant noob yet you don't seem to know that in UT99 double jumping was for noobs. About the only servers that used double jump were the worst noob servers and low grav sniper servers. In fact the noob servers turned double jump on because they knew no even halfway decent player would play with double jump. The only thing playing with double jump on did was get you ridiculed.

So keep pulling for your lame movement and call me all the names you want but just remember in the end the real noob (worse yet a double jumping noob) is you.

You realize this isn't solving the problem or contributing, right? Dodge jump is officially not in the game's core mechanics. There's no reason to argue with people that can't accept that or are actively ignoring ALL of the discussion about that topic that led up to Epic's official decision. The less noise the and bickering there is, the better a job we can do improving this game's core movement mechanics (which again, DO NOT include double jump so just ignore anyone that is still arguing that they should).

Personal attacks and being condescending doesn't get anyone anywhere.

[b1olust]

There's no need to repeat to trolls what's been said a thousand times. You knew perfectly well what the problems with double jump are. What's funny is you're calling me an ignorant noob yet you don't seem to know that in UT99 double jumping was for noobs. About the only servers that used double jump were the worst noob servers and low grav sniper servers. In fact the noob servers turned double jump on because they knew no even halfway decent player would play with double jump. The only thing playing with double jump on did was get you ridiculed.

So keep pulling for your lame movement and call me all the names you want but just remember in the end the real noob (worse yet a double jumping noob) is you.

It's really sad to see people like you on the forum...

Please be nice and courteous to others instead of acting like a 12 year old raging boy.

[enoch84]

Did anyone make a poll for whether or not to include double jump? Someone said there was one, but I can't seem to find it.

[Sir_Brizz]

Did anyone make a poll for whether or not to include double jump? Someone said there was one, but I can't seem to find it.

There were several of them but they always ended between 50-60% for and 40-50% against which isn't really enough of a difference to take anything from.

[enoch84]

There were several of them but they always ended between 50-60% for and 40-50% against which isn't really enough of a difference to take anything from.

Hmm. So at least half of us didn't want EPIC to scrap a core movement from the last two games (12 years?), but they did it anyway. Makes sense.

[Sir_Brizz]

Hmm. So at least half of us didn't want EPIC to scrap a core movement from the last two games (12 years?), but they did it anyway. Makes sense.

The results are inconclusive and they lean away from it because of the obvious problems that it caused. I think you could minimize the problems but you could never really eliminate them and keep the freedom of movement that makes it fun.

[DonkeyKong]

I don't like air control in UT. I think it goes good in games like Counter Strike but I prefer UT with less air control.

[MoxNix]

It's really sad to see people like you on the forum...

Please be nice and courteous to others instead of acting like a 12 year old raging boy.

I'm nice and courteous to those who are nice and courteous to me. What you quoted in your message was in response to an insulting troll who called me an ignorant noob. I simply reminded him the mechanics he called me a noob for not liking are the very same mechanics that were only used by noobs in UT99.

Oh and I'm pretty sure you're a lot closer to 12 years old than I am. Maybe you should be careful the names you toss around too.