Another take on movement (Long live the air control!)

[Specter_]

I'm nice and courteous to those who are nice and courteous to me. What you quoted in your message was in response to an insulting troll who called me an ignorant noob. I simply reminded him the mechanics he called me a noob for not liking are the very same mechanics that were only used by noobs in UT99.

Oh and I'm pretty sure you're a lot closer to 12 years old than I am. Maybe you should be careful the names you toss around too.

Still haven't been given a good reason why double jump shouldn't be in the game. I guess you didn't clearly see what I said the first time. Oh and also, the fact that you're using the UT99 servers to help your case is pathetic. Still an ignorant-minded past-dweller, lol.

[Laokin]

Still haven't been given a good reason why double jump shouldn't be in the game. I guess you didn't clearly see what I said the first time. Oh and also, the fact that you're using the UT99 servers to help your case is pathetic. Still an ignorant-minded past-dweller, lol.

Excellent reasons have been listed here time and time again, by players and the devs alike.

Double jumping invalidates the usage of projectile based weapons and shifts the meta to long range hit scan engagements as well as messes up the proportions and spacing, defacto requiring larger maps to accommodate the further movement distances.

The extra air control combined with the stalling of downward momentum pretty much breaks the usage of rockets/flak/bio rifle and so on, part of the reason the bio rifle is so good right now is precisely because you can't double jump. This isn't to say movement is limited in UT 4, because it's not, people bouncing off walls and what have you in ways you never could before, suitably replaces the idea and mechanic behind double jumping without removing the readability, since you're dependent upon terrain.

[enoch84]

Excellent reasons have been listed here time and time again, by players and the devs alike.

Double jumping invalidates the usage of projectile based weapons and shifts the meta to long range hit scan engagements as well as messes up the proportions and spacing, defacto requiring larger maps to accommodate the further movement distances.

The extra air control combined with the stalling of downward momentum pretty much breaks the usage of rockets/flak/bio rifle and so on, part of the reason the bio rifle is so good right now is precisely because you can't double jump. This isn't to say movement is limited in UT 4, because it's not, people bouncing off walls and what have you in ways you never could before, suitably replaces the idea and mechanic behind double jumping without removing the readability, since you're dependent upon terrain.

I don't really have time for a detailed response, but I will mention that both UT3 and UT2004 have double jump and those games are awesome. UT3 has tons of tiny maps (sentinel, bonescraper, pure, bigwig, intercept, etc.) and those are the maps that get the most play. The rocket launcher and flak are probably the deadliest weapons. Double jump allows you to avoid some of the splash damage from these weapons. Sure, it might be harder to get air rocket kills in UT3, but not by much. I'd rather have freedom of movement (air control) than be able to shoot a rocket at a helpless opponent in the air. I'm content to wait till he lands. No way does multi wall dodge replace double jump. They're completely unrelated. The "non-readability" of double jump is one reason that makes it great. You can fake out your opponent because you don't have to commit to a jump. You use a similar technique to avoid splash damage and then return to where you were. But it's not like you can double jump right above a rocket at your feet and not be scathed.

[MΛuL]

Double jumping invalidates the usage of projectile based weapons and shifts the meta to long range hit scan engagements as well as messes up the proportions and spacing, defacto requiring larger maps to accommodate the further movement distances.

I've been running a UT3 server since day 1 of UT3 and I'm still running one (yes I know...) and I can say this has not been an issue in Deathmatch at least. This was much more of an issue in 2K4 of course with dodge jumping.

[RPGWiZ4RD]

I've been running a UT3 server since day 1 of UT3 and I'm still running one (yes I know...) and I can say this has not been an issue in Deathmatch at least. This was much more of an issue in 2K4 of course with dodge jumping.

This, I've played lots of UT3 and double jump didn't shift this at all towards UT2k4 gameplay, if anything Rocket was still the most powerful weapon in the game stats wise, I'd estimate by roughly 10~15%.

I don't really used double jump to avoid rockets either because frankly you're still a very slow moving target when jumping and therefore people would just hit you when you land since the horizontal movement speed is so slow when jumping which always will be the tradeoff with jump and why it's not usually that effective (honestly only noobs keeps doing that). Dodging was far more effective.

But double jump worked well with lift jumping and to look down/shoot over an edge and those things are the ones I'm missing. Dodge jump I don't want in for the reasons stated above, that has both the height and horizontal speed to make dodging projectile weapons very effective (a bit too much so if you ask me and I've played a few rounds online with the earlier movement proto on Payder and my conclusions were pretty much this) but double jump won't do that and will add a bit more depth to the movement.

[Specter_]

Excellent reasons have been listed here time and time again, by players and the devs alike.

Double jumping invalidates the usage of projectile based weapons and shifts the meta to long range hit scan engagements as well as messes up the proportions and spacing, defacto requiring larger maps to accommodate the further movement distances.

The extra air control combined with the stalling of downward momentum pretty much breaks the usage of rockets/flak/bio rifle and so on, part of the reason the bio rifle is so good right now is precisely because you can't double jump. This isn't to say movement is limited in UT 4, because it's not, people bouncing off walls and what have you in ways you never could before, suitably replaces the idea and mechanic behind double jumping without removing the readability, since you're dependent upon terrain.

I think the above posters summed it up well enough for me, so I'll just agree that in no way does double jump break gameplay, it simply gives many more opportunities.

[Man7a]

Ey Everyone, Just like to say, I was a hardcore player in ut2k4, in my country (RSA) just before ut3 came out, i was top 5 in dueling, one thing i have to agree on is that double jumps / dodge jumps did cause projectiles weapons to suffer, one of the reason i state this is because, prediction was not the problem, but you had to be sure a guy was dodge jumping before you fired a projectile, which in return caused weapon fire rate to be decreased while the other player with a SR, LG, Mini or link could continue to fire at normal rate. same with shooting some one mid air with projectiles, for instance, instead of using one rocket to hit a guy, you needed two.

Dodge jumping made the game fun and it was an upgrade to it's predecessor, despite the disadvantage it posed for people like me that love the RL, tho i feel ut3 took away that features without giving anything back.

I don't think we need dodge jumping in UT4, provided the game gets an additional feature that provides the same amount of enjoyment / gameplay.

Double jump is debatable, I feel if we don't have dodge jumping, we should also not have double jumping. Lets look at the current build of UT4, fight with a rocket launcher, and rate difficultly you have hitting some one with the center part of aoe dmg at medium distance ( meaning you do max splash dmg to a target), and rate it from 1-10, atm for me, it is quite challenging. increasing movement or adding double jump/doge jump will almost make this impossible ( provided you fight a decent player ) with the current RL build.

Maybe i love my RL just so much and fear for the worst but i do hope my point is being shown in my post.

Manta

[TotesAmaze]

Dodge jumping made the game fun and it was an upgrade to it's predecessor, despite the disadvantage it posed for people like me that love the RL, tho i feel ut3 took away that features without giving anything back.

I don't think we need dodge jumping in UT4, provided the game gets an additional feature that provides the same amount of enjoyment / gameplay.

Manta

I kindof agree with you, and I DO get what your saying. I don't think the subject is black and white like so many say, dodge-jump caused some problems with balance of combat in UT2k4, but the problems weren't that bad, it was still a hell of a fun game and for me the most enjoyable arena shooter ever. It isn't just the mechanic though, its like saying "the rocket launcher is OP, get rid of the rocket launcher" instead of tuning the rocket damage. I think the DJ and double jump were over the top in 2k4 and the way they worked needs changing. So far in my movement prototype the game just doesn't feel the same without them, it adds to the interesting moves you can do instead of just feeling like you have one move - dodge. I have it included in my prototype because like you say, I've not yet found that additional feature that provides the same amount of enjoyment and game-play possibilities. The actual moves feel very different to 2k4 despite the mechanic being the same.

[K-2]

Updated with some more tweaks & balancing.
Tried to make regular dodges a bit more "powerful" according to feedback, but no drastic changes. I still think it sould take as little time as possible to dodge & change direction.
Slight increase in single jump height & crouching speed.
Rolling speed is now equal to running(used to be lower) with slight decrease at the end of the roll.
MovementPrototyper.zip

Here trying it out on Lea & Otpost23. I'm also noticing that you're not obligated to double jump to move around the map and there's a lot of places where "minor" jump is prefereble & faster than vanilla one.

[halfblocked]

I'm not gonna lie, that looks sexy.
Also i see both sides, those who love double dump like myself and those that don't.
But in truth whats the harm in just having these types of movement in the game as a select-able thing that servers can enable or not.
Those that want it get it and those that don't don't. Let the community play the game the way they wan't to.

[nuxx]

This looks excellent and really overcomes the trapped feeling of the movement in the game at the moment. Will try it later on and post feedback

[Lady*D]

Updated with some more tweaks & balancing.
Tried to make regular dodges a bit more "powerful" according to feedback, but no drastic changes. I still think it sould take as little time as possible to dodge & change direction.
Slight increase in single jump height & crouching speed.
Rolling speed is now equal to running(used to be lower) with slight decrease at the end of the roll.
[ATTACH]12894[/ATTACH]

Here trying it out on Lea & Otpost23. I'm also noticing that you're not obligated to double jump to move around the map and there's a lot of places where "minor" jump is prefereble & faster than vanilla one.

This is the best of all the prototype . More features, more dynamic , more skills

[K-2]

But in truth whats the harm in just having these types of movement in the game as a select-able thing that servers can enable or not.
Those that want it get it and those that don't don't. Let the community play the game the way they wan't to.

The problem is that having such things as primary movement mechanics as selectable options harms the integrity of the core game and splits the already gametype-splitted community even more.
As for the newcomers who would play UT the very first time - there's no difference for them at all cause people are just excited by running & shooting things at fast pace. The real difference is in the depth and skill celling as people progressing through the game. In this case double jumping and decent air control adds a lot to evasive component of the combat as well as gives more options to reach certain areas of the map. Especially DJ makes it harder to hit with "lazy aiming" for hitscan as there's more potential spots to put your crosshair in the first place (so we don't need to nerf the shock beam & sniper rifle).
Such things as quad-jump & low grav are pretty much OK as selectables but the core movement is somewhat different.

[Lady*D]

When at last you take notice of this prototype? Obviously this prototype brings new possibilities, more variety, there is more room for improvisation

[CFD2]

****, that's so nice. I hope your prototype will be in the game as core movement mechanics... I am so tired of that feeling of limited possibilities and reduced dynamics of game process... ut3 was so much more intense...
Thanks a ton K-2 and best of luck with your prototype!