What kind of advanced moves do you want to see?

[Taleweaver]

First and all: my apologies to Hunter. I really don't want to make more polls than needed and this one is pretty similar to his. But with things going pretty close (over a hundred votes for each and VERY CLOSE), it's probably best to vote things in a bit more detail. Hence this poll.

Here's a breakdown of the options (for those not too familiar with UT):


Double jump: has been around since UT2003. A second Jump at the highest point of a previous one. Note that the gained height of a normal jump is decreased a bit, so not voting for the double jump actually means you want a higher regular jump.
Dodge jump: jump directly after making a regular dodge. Probably the main reason UT200x is considered floaty, as professional players probably spend more time in the air than actually touching the ground with this move.
Walldodge (UT2kx): another introduction since UT2003: you don't need to stand on the ground to dodge. Being close to a wall works as well.
Walldodge (UT3): like previous. Except that in UT3, you keep your vertical speed, so if you're falling fast, it won't make you go from a vertical to a horizontal movement. It's certainly more realistic, but it's up to you to decide if it's more fun. Note: please don't vote both for this and the previous option.
Boost jump: I haven't played UT2003 enough to have first hand experience, but I'm told that if you could somehow press the jump button in between the two direction presses of a dodge while ALSO doing a walldodge, this would result in a huge-*** jump. I remember a video of a bombing run run in the base of BR-bifrost, but alas...I can't find it again.
(note: while this move is still in UT2004, it apparently is nerfed so much it's sort of the same as not there anymore)
Slope dodge: dodging up a steep slope would make you climb it. Even faster if you run in one direction then dodge sideways into said steep slope. Has been around since the original unreal, but pretty much removed in UT3. Best example map is DM-Rankin, which had plenty of opportunities for this move thanks to all the plates lying around.
Shield/impact hammer jump: hold the primary fire of the device, point at the ground, release. Has been with us since we had a melee weapon.
Impact hammer launching: has something to do with watching the skies while holding the impact hammer's alt fire down and then having a teammate jump into it, launching him across...wherever he needed to be.
Rocket/goo/other weapon jump: yes...other weapons could also be used for jumping. Took more health (except goo jumping+shieldgun alt fire) and was hard to aim, and generally took way too much time when fighting, but hey...it's an advanced move.


I think those are all the moves (I'm sorry if I'm missing something...it's after midnight here). Well...except the following two which haven't been changed whatsoever in any entry. I hope everyone agrees these can stay, as I was running out of options for the poll:

Dodge: doubleclick a direction to 'jump' sideways in that direction. Pretty basic. Has been around in all UT series and even unreal
Lift jump: jump when riding an elevator upwards and you'll be pushed much higher than average. Not sure if this started out intentionally in the original unreal, but it has always been here (and many maps with elevators have an 'extra platform' to lift jump to)

EDIT: while voting is still possible, it's important to know that there's an update on the movement mechanics by Epic. So don't come in and expect to radically change the way they think now.

[prodigy84bg]

I'm on the fence about double jumping. I think dodge jumping should be disabled by default, but available as a mutator.

[DBracey]

I'm on the fence about double jumping. I think dodge jumping should be disabled by default, but available as a mutator.

Not with you there. Double jumping has to be in and not as a mutator.

One of the reasons UT3 failed was it removed key movement capabilities that were core in its predecessor. We need to learn from that mistake. Plus, double tapping and wall jumping are part of what made UT2003/UT2004 so much fun. Fast and strategic movement capabilities should never be mutators, they should be core.

[Laokin]

Not with you there. Double jumping has to be in and not as a mutator.

One of the reasons UT3 failed was it removed key movement capabilities that were core in its predecessor. We need to learn from that mistake. Plus, double tapping and wall jumping are part of what made UT2003/UT2004 so much fun. Fast and strategic movement capabilities should never be mutators, they should be core.

The same can be said in reverse.

If looking at in game populations and longevity of the competitive scene, one could easily argue that UT '99 was the height of the series, with that being said -- adding Double Jump to the 2K series [as well as dodge jumping] is what ruined the game competetively.

It's also what gave hit scan weapons the dominance they had in UT2K series. The second jump pretty much invalidates the use of splash damage weapons like Rocket Launchers/Grenades/Flak Grenades and so on. The second jump allowed you to virtually avoid all the splash damage, reducing these weapons in value, bringing with it, the rise of this weird long distance advantaged meta game, further producing bigger sprawling maps and slowing down the actual gameplay.

I argue to remove the double jump out right, change the dodge jump into a proper forward direction only long jump, ala Half Life. The long jump should be very low in jump height, and require you to be running forward, but also to be moving for [x] amount of steps before it can be done. Forcing people to have running starts in order to produce the long jump effect. Upon landing, put in a few frames of stumble/recovery time so you don't feel inclined to do this in every single battle since it will leave you as a sitting duck for a moment. [You could run sideways to build momentum meaning lateral movement counts against the required amount of steps.] A long jump should also not require dodging, I vote for crouch + jump to engage. This redesign allows you to make jumps you otherwise wouldn't, but doesn't force you to use the long jump as a primary means of movement, but a situational one.

Keep wall dodging too, make it a middle ground version of UT3 and UT2K in terms of velocity. This preserves the speed element and removes the hoppy aoe dampening effects of a second jump.

It is of my, and many others, opinion that double jumping is generally BAD for the gameplay [I believe epic is on the same page, which is why they removed this as a base feature in UT3.] The problem with UT3, was the gamespeed.... it was just overall too slow. The art design was also way too busy and dark and over designed.

The consequence of the unexplainable velocity booster of the double jump is much larger in terms of how it affects the meta. If you watch any UT2K footage of good players playing, they are almost always camping an overlook or dodge jumping/double jumping non stop. This not only looks silly, but is silly. It also has the downside of again, negating the splash affects of the non-hitscan weapon variety.

Double Jumping can be a mutator, but the game should be designed around a single jump, with a higher base height. The ability to change direction mid air, as well as get a puff of loftyness ruined the balance of the gun game. The only way to reinstate the viability of the gun game, is to increase the splash radius of the weapons, and then you have a required Double Jump that's invalidated by splash, so why even have the feature to begin with?

Another alternative;
The jump boots could give you double jumps, while super jump boots are the Jump Boots of the olden days. This stops people from just hopping about, and turns the jump boots into a formidable offensive tool with a limit, instead of a base feature that trashes the balance of the gun game.

UT3 didn't fail because of the removal of double jumping, it failed because it was incomplete when it launched, the server browser didn't even work, then when it finally did, the game ran so bad because it was so ahead of it's time in terms of technology, that it wasn't very fun to play. On top of all of that, it's an inferior game to UT 99, despite the throw back to the 99 weapons, because of it's game speed. The movespeed was just too slow, they removed the dodge jump, but forgot to increase the base move speed, making it the slowest UT game to date.

Had nothing to do with the removal of double jumping. Going back now and playing it smoothly, UT3 is a better game than the 2k series, it's just too slow and too ugly [read: busy and full of clutter and has an awful color palette and smearing of post process fx.]

UT 3 could have been fixed by the community, except the community was dead before Epic finished the game... It is also my belief that epic made the game intentionally slower, designing around the Playstation 3 version of the game.

We don't have this problem with UT4, since it's a PC exclusive game.

The Double Jump is the red headed step-feature of Unreal. It's cool and all, but the implications of it existing tarnish the overall experience -- therefor, it's cooler to put it in a controlled state with limits, rather than to give it as a base feature. [And mutators, anyway.]

[No Double Jumps]
Unreal Gold
Unreal Tournament
Unreal Tournament 3

[Doube Jumps]
Unreal Tournament 2000

While UT3 may not be as good as UT, it's still better than UT2K's hopapalooza, and in that regard, it was a return to form. I believe this was the right decision, and support the lack of a default double jump in UT4.

[sneh]

Double jump, dodge jump, and wall-dodge jump should be part of the core game.

If people really dislike these, there would be options to disable them (eg. game / server options)

[nubizZz]

The same can be said in reverse.

If looking at in game populations and longevity of the competitive scene, one could easily argue that UT '99 was the height of the series, with that being said -- adding Double Jump to the 2K series [as well as dodge jumping] is what ruined the game competetively.

It's also what gave hit scan weapons the dominance they had in UT2K series. The second jump pretty much invalidates the use of splash damage weapons like Rocket Launchers/Grenades/Flak Grenades and so on. The second jump allowed you to virtually avoid all the splash damage, reducing these weapons in value, bringing with it, the rise of this weird long distance advantaged meta game, further producing bigger sprawling maps and slowing down the actual gameplay.

I argue to remove the double jump out right, change the dodge jump into a proper forward direction only long jump, ala Half Life. The long jump should be very low in jump height, and require you to be running forward, but also to be moving for [x] amount of steps before it can be done. Forcing people to have running starts in order to produce the long jump effect. Upon landing, put in a few frames of stumble/recovery time so you don't feel inclined to do this in every single battle since it will leave you as a sitting duck for a moment. [You could run sideways to build momentum meaning lateral movement counts against the required amount of steps.] A long jump should also not require dodging, I vote for crouch + jump to engage. This redesign allows you to make jumps you otherwise wouldn't, but doesn't force you to use the long jump as a primary means of movement, but a situational one.

Keep wall dodging too, make it a middle ground version of UT3 and UT2K in terms of velocity. This preserves the speed element and removes the hoppy aoe dampening effects of a second jump.

It is of my, and many others, opinion that double jumping is generally BAD for the gameplay [I believe epic is on the same page, which is why they removed this as a base feature in UT3.] The problem with UT3, was the gamespeed.... it was just overall too slow. The art design was also way too busy and dark and over designed.

The consequence of the unexplainable velocity booster of the double jump is much larger in terms of how it affects the meta. If you watch any UT2K footage of good players playing, they are almost always camping an overlook or dodge jumping/double jumping non stop. This not only looks silly, but is silly. It also has the downside of again, negating the splash affects of the non-hitscan weapon variety.

Double Jumping can be a mutator, but the game should be designed around a single jump, with a higher base height. The ability to change direction mid air, as well as get a puff of loftyness ruined the balance of the gun game. The only way to reinstate the viability of the gun game, is to increase the splash radius of the weapons, and then you have a required Double Jump that's invalidated by splash, so why even have the feature to begin with?

Another alternative;
The jump boots could give you double jumps, while super jump boots are the Jump Boots of the olden days. This stops people from just hopping about, and turns the jump boots into a formidable offensive tool with a limit, instead of a base feature that trashes the balance of the gun game.

UT3 didn't fail because of the removal of double jumping, it failed because it was incomplete when it launched, the server browser didn't even work, then when it finally did, the game ran so bad because it was so ahead of it's time in terms of technology, that it wasn't very fun to play. On top of all of that, it's an inferior game to UT 99, despite the throw back to the 99 weapons, because of it's game speed. The movespeed was just too slow, they removed the dodge jump, but forgot to increase the base move speed, making it the slowest UT game to date.

Had nothing to do with the removal of double jumping. Going back now and playing it smoothly, UT3 is a better game than the 2k series, it's just too slow and too ugly [read: busy and full of clutter and has an awful color palette and smearing of post process fx.]

UT 3 could have been fixed by the community, except the community was dead before Epic finished the game... It is also my belief that epic made the game intentionally slower, designing around the Playstation 3 version of the game.

We don't have this problem with UT4, since it's a PC exclusive game.

The Double Jump is the red headed step-feature of Unreal. It's cool and all, but the implications of it existing tarnish the overall experience -- therefor, it's cooler to put it in a controlled state with limits, rather than to give it as a base feature. [And mutators, anyway.]

[No Double Jumps]
Unreal Gold
Unreal Tournament
Unreal Tournament 3

[Doube Jumps]
Unreal Tournament 2000

While UT3 may not be as good as UT, it's still better than UT2K's hopapalooza, and in that regard, it was a return to form. I believe this was the right decision, and support the lack of a default double jump in UT4.

/discussion.

[Wormbo]

Ripper secondary jump. \o/

[Stormblast]

To be fair about double jumping, it has its cons and pros.

It could give you an advantage if you knew how to use it, but at the right time. If you did it when you shouldn't have to, a decent player with a good timing could hit a flak ball on your face/chest/legs, not really something that "invalidates" splash damage, in my opinion.

After doing the double jump, the landing was the most vulnerable situation ever, it wasn't something that was abused because the normal movements like dodging were kind of stuck for some miliseconds. Someone that knew how this worked, could anticipate to the situation and land anything on you, from a headshot to a full bio charge, depending on the fight circumstances.

[Taleweaver]

Interesting results thus far. If I combine the two walldodge options, everyone is pretty unanimous about it. Melee weapon jumping being a favorite was to be expected, and I'm glad the UT2003 antics aren't that popular. The main dispute of the community seem to be about the double jump or the dodge jump. I'm afraid it'll be up to epic to decide on these ones, as I doubt this is going to be resolved through dialog (people just loving the move set they know, I guess...).
The only thing that amazes me is that slope dodging gets only about half the votes. That's kind of strange, seeing how it had some very interesting ways to traverse the map. And perhaps I have missed some forum posts, but I can't remember anyone being glad it was nerfed to pretty much nothing in UT3. :\


Oh, and for the record: I personally voted for walldodge (UT2kx), slope dodge, impact jump and other weapons jump.


@Stormblast: please...do you mind not discussing what people think was the better game here? Laokin properly explained his ideas revolving the movement in the games, and that's what matters here. You can always start a new discussion or PM him about it.

[Stormblast]

You are right, my bad for going offtopic there. I will edit that out.

[khxmz]

All UT99 forms of self-boosting, team-boosting, and trans-boosting:

Self Boost:
Piston Jump
Piston Dodge
Piston Boot Jump
Jumping and Dodging off any projectile aimed at floor/wall (less common but shock jumping/dodging or ripper dodging definitely had niche uses in CTF/RA)

Team Boost:
Piston Launch (would love to see this return but have a feeling it won't)
Shock Primary
Shock Combo
Rockets
Other projectiles (though basically used to troll your flag carrier, still fun)

Slope dodging is also a must and your velocity/trajectory can be effected by many of the things listed above ^

Here's a video example of the flag carrier doing a standard piston jump and then getting primaried twice in midair by teammate for those unfamiliar with competitive UT99 team boost mechanics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7Bhsf-NNE

[rxixp]

Weapon ideas

-lightning + shock combo: how about shooting a shock core down the hall....then switching to a lightning gun and busting the core for double shock damage, bigger animated implosion with static electricity almost like the glass ball we all touched as a kid with electricity. wooh! Game changer! Shoot multiple shock cores and connect with lightning and it should electro magneticly connect to all available shock core. Lol intense I know!

-piston replacement suggestion: a gun I created inspired by scorpions spear of mk, spawns chains, and doctor octopuses tentacles. This weapon would launch a claw that could grab a player and aggressively bring him over for a violent melee! Or you can hold it for full force and grab a wall up high....quickly back flipping with a double jump to follow ...sweet...fc friendly, speaking of it.... it would also be great for piston jumping. Picture the animation showing this chain wave and recoil quickly with the sound of a roller coaster going up a hill in fast forward back to your gun.

-fix a flak: left click= shrapnel spray, great for close range...hold left click and you shoot a stronger shrapnel, in the animation of a swirling spiral of shrap ...with more velocity making it greater for long distance or for better words, extending it's range.

-flak + slime combo: shoot a full load of goo....follow it up with a flak ball= goo splat explosion with shrap mix!

-tranquilizzzzer: maybe a sniper rifle second option or its own gun, this could be a game changer. This gun would not kill you or take any health...just put you to sleep aka Mia for a matter of hmmm maybe 5 seconds tops. Ctf strats. Be very stingy with this ammo.

-melee please: if I run out of ammo I should still be able to smack someone. This has been needed for the longest.

Foot work

-double dodge + duck = roll... This would reward the more conscious fighter and adds a more realistic aspect to a gun fight.

-sprint mode: mainly ctf fc's will use this...but it will be useful in general....something similar to the run style in gears of war. Including the slide! Also disable shooting ability while in sprint.

-please bring back the dodge double jump!

-please bring back the front flip feature from UT99...and the unique side flips some characters had.


New adrenaline?

-raised consciousness: this will put you in a state of potential perfection! The ability would affect other players by making them a bigger target or just a bigger head like NBA jam!...Also gives you a temporary radar, and allows you to see through walls! #godlike

announcer!

-please don't stop at wicked sick....keep going! Be like:GOT DAM....THIS IS TERRIBLE...make him laugh like HAHAHAH...AMAZING...RUTHLESS...INSANITY....CHILD ABUSE lol just a few.


All these things collectively would make the game faster, more advanced, and match the attitude us UT players carry of, feeling like UT is the most skill required 1st person shooter of all time. Beside weaponry, the footwork of double jumps and dodges are the main thing that separate us, giving me the inspiration of these ideas, in hope ut continues to be ahead of the curve. Let me know what you guys think I hope these are late ideas that have already been under construction or at least inspire similar ideas. This is my favorite game of all time for shooters and this is like the only game i play besides taken tag 2. Ive played since ut99 just so you know my opinion is very well thought out from playing ut daily for years.....can't wait!

[Wormbo]

Oh, here's a thought: Include some of the more generic BulletStorm moves. For example, sliding (though with a realistic limit of the distance) or kicking.
Other dodging moves may also be useful, e.g. a sideward roll. (Some UT/UT2004 models had rolling dodge or jump animations, which prompted players to ask how to perform such a rolling move.)

[SaunaCowboy]

Dodge jump can't be just a mutator just as removing it can not be. Dodge jump has too large of influence on map design. If you have dodge jump then you end up with small player big map that is terrible for non dodge jump. If you don't have it then dodge jumping will keep flinging you into terrain/obstacles and feel terrible. Also you won't be able to get through door ways cause of height.

Dodge jump turned unreal from an arena/corridor shooter into it's own beast. The scale was completely different from any other game before and after. This is why it's so hard to find a compromise. Unfortunately, although the 2k4 community is incredibly passionate and dedicated, arena shooters have always had a larger community. All quake games, unreal/ut/ut3, painkiller, warsow/xenotic/nexius have a similar scale where as 2k4 is completely different. 2k4 never brought in the numbers and had faster fall off compared to UT99 and Q3 which is probably why in UT3 this game style was abandoned.

My suggestion is to go back to arena shooter scale like in UT3. Have faster movement than UT99/UT3 and quick responsive dodging giving a similar move speed to 2k4 without the problems with scale. This would also appeal more to Quake players who feel that UT's move speed is too slow. On top of this add in wall dodging so you still get that air ninja style feel in combat but again without problems in scale. This will not satisfy UT2k4 players who like it's scale but it should do more to satisfy all lovers of arena FPS than going back to pure UT99 style movement.

As for adding in parkour style moves I'm not against the idea but think that wall dodging should be more of a graphical/feel take on wall sliding from ut99. Same with getting over ledges and ramp slides. The reason for this is 1 button press your a movement expert options from other games is really against the high degree of skill movement takes on in other arena shooter games.

As for sliding and other movement options that don't have a basis in UT I'm actually for them in other arena shooter games but against them in UT. Like I'm for momentum based movement systems but against them in UT. This game should feel like an unreal tournament game first and foremost which means dodging. Quake had its momentum which made it a much more pot shot distance fighting based arena shooter than UT as that's what it's momentum based movement was good for. UT movement allowed you to fight in close combat much more effectively but was ultimately slower for getting around the map. Other games that have sliding or rolling also depart from an UT style feel. Not bad for other games looking for their own signature but would clutter UT too much and be difficult to implement without them being to simplistic or UTs movement getting too complex.

Now everyone can tell me how I'm wrong.

[Beerzebub]

^ I agree. I'm thinking almost the same things. And what about adding more acrobatic possibilities like dodging multiple times from walls that are close enough?