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    Originally posted by Enxaqca View Post
    I don't see all those scale problems. If a map designer doesn't want a player to climb a place, just put something there so the player can't. It's simple.
    Again, this can easily mess up how the scale feels. It's not that you can't overcome it. I can think of two maps in 2k4 that overcame it even with dodge jump. However, they were the exception not the rule. They weren't made by Epic and they didn't come out for over a year after the game came out.
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      Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
      Again, this can easily mess up how the scale feels. It's not that you can't overcome it. I can think of two maps in 2k4 that overcame it even with dodge jump. However, they were the exception not the rule. They weren't made by Epic and they didn't come out for over a year after the game came out.
      I agree in parts. Scale is already messed up and feels not right. The player fits in spaces where you look and don't believe it does. Feels like you are a midget.

      Comment


        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
        Sadly I think you aren't seeing it for what it is. 65-70% of a normal jump? that would be nice, but too bad it's more like 25-30% the power of a single jump.
        Sorry, I've misread the first statement cause I was talking about single jump being 65-70% of a double jump in that reply. I still see nothing wrong with that though, the height is not the main point of doublejump. The trajectory & airtime are far more important and while it's only around 30% height gain it's also almost double max horizontal distance. It gives more room for distance management so you can move without slowing down eventually and choose the most suitable option instead of the only one.

        Here's also some examples of horizontal distance you can get. The results could vary a tiny bit (it wasn't an experiment in perfect conditions) but it's pretty much recreatable. I was using a link gun to mark the landing spots while trying to keep the right angle.

        That's UT4 default settings.
        Click image for larger version

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        As we can see the jump distance is almost equal to dodge while it takes more time to land on a surface. You'll probably avoid using it pretty much every time when you don't need to get higher. It also doesn't help you in combat at all asumming there's no opportunity to walldodge, it takes you almost in the same spot as dodge and that's where your enemy is likely to aim.

        Here's the same test with DJ prototype.
        Click image for larger version

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        Well, that's I would call a fair distance distribution. The difference between two adjacent lines is kinda equal and measurable. You're able to manage the distance with less running & deceleration and it makes the game feel faster without changing the actual speed. Jumping also becomes a pretty valuable option for combat because of how many combinations you can do. Double jump + AC gives you a lot of freedom cause you're able to significantly change your initial jump direction and ability to time it gives even more flexibility. The "tiny" single jump also became far more useful than vanilla higher variant cause it doesn't take so much time to land, it's like a mini-dodge with no delay and it's great for "pretending" (fake dodging). It's one of those aspects that's not too commonly used, cause it works well only in UT3 so far and many people are just not interested in discovering it, but I assure - you're actually coluld be quite impressed by how much you're able to do with that so called "sluggish" movement after playing with some hard-boiled UT3 locals
        Last edited by K-2; 03-13-2015, 05:04 PM.

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          I agree that it's not as bad in UT4 as it was in 2k4.
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          Comment


            Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
            It's not baseless. The more you do, the more it affects the scale which means things have to be scaled differently and the eye height has to change which means the jump might be too high or low and on and on and on.

            UT3 definitely had design problems as a result of double jump. The fact that almost every ledge you could see required a second jump is evidence of that.
            It is baseless. You still don't get the point that any movement mechanic there is will change the map design. If there was only a single jump allowed in UT3, everything would be scaled smaller to compensate for no double jump. The same would happen if double jump was present - everything would be scaled larger. There is no default (as in, single jump isn't the "default" out of the two) between single and double jumping. It's completely relative to whatever game it's in. It's not like the map designer HAS to make all the ledges double jump distance either. It's completely up to the map maker whether or not they want to make the gap bigger or smaller; and you can't use the argument that this creates inconsistency because again, other mechanics would change the design as well. If there is a ledge that seems a good distance away (in a game without double jump), but there is no way to single jump to it - what do you do? You could either: wall dodge (if possible), hammer jump, rocket jump etc. etc. etc... There are so many possibilities that could deem the movement as "inconsistent", but then, we'd have to consider the movement of every single UT game inconsistent.

            Comment


              Movement in all the game is inconsistent with each other in most ways.

              I never said anything about how movement mechanics change how maps are made. The problem is if you can be in the air for longer there are certain factors you have to account for whether you like it or not. It's unavoidable.

              If you make a map in UT and you have carefully set it up so there are gaps that cannot be traversed by jumping over them, then you add double jump then all those gaps can be cleareed. That completely changes the flow.

              If you take a map like that and port it to 2k4, you are going to make that gap wider to keep the same map flow. That increases the scale.

              The same can be said for ledges/boxes that you can/can't jump on.

              Whether it is the mappers fault or not is kind of immaterial. The fact you can sail through the air a lot longer changes the tactical considerations of a map. You can either design your maps so they don't have these kinds of penalizing areas (which is what Toxikk seems to be going for) or you can increase the map scale (which is what 2k3 and 2k4 did). You can't do nothing.

              Do other mechanics carry similar considerations? Yes. However most mechanics that don't put you in the air don't change the considerations as dramatically as those that do put you in the air do. You can ignore that there is a difference if you want, but I have two whole games of evidence for dodge jump and three whole games of evidence for double jump where these scaling/sizing problems happened.
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              Comment


                K-2 good diagram and it does put a little bit in perspective for your different options but the thing I have a problem with is when you say double jump isn't about vertical gain. The reason people use jumps at all are primarily vertical gain and we can easily see double jump be vertical in 2k4. UT3's double jump and your diagram treat it as horizontal gain and this is more like a controlled dodgejump. (dodge jump was horizontal gain). When the nature of doublejump is not vertical but horizontal it sends conflicting messaging to the player. They jump once to gain vertical height, but jump a second time to mostly gain horizontal? This is counter intuitive how it switches the roles and that's why it's frustrating to someone who isn't well adapted to that.

                I'm not saying double jumps should have the same power of a normal jump because that would be stupid. I'm in favor of diminishing returns when double jump is not as powerful as single but if it's only 25-30% of a jump then it's just not useful as a jump it's use is a controlled dodgejump. Idealy I think something more in the range of 35-40% of a jump would be better suited for something called double-jump. Not scale breaking but not ultra precision required either.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                  UT3's double jump and your diagram treat it as horizontal gain and this is more like a controlled dodgejump. (dodge jump was horizontal gain). When the nature of doublejump is not vertical but horizontal it sends conflicting messaging to the player. They jump once to gain vertical height, but jump a second time to mostly gain horizontal? This is counter intuitive how it switches the roles and that's why it's frustrating to someone who isn't well adapted to that.
                  I admit that kinda counter-intuitivity of a double jump is a significant problem about UT3. It just doesn't do a good job at telling people how to use it properly and the only way to learn is to watch & analyze the movement of some higher skilled players. Double jump mechanics is also could be more annoying for people who doesn't use walldodging as well for several reasons. It's been quite common in UT3 to hear something like "how do you walljump?" and when you explain how to do that some people also find it quite complicated and prefer to not use it for a time being (I belive that introducing single-tap walldodging actually helps a lot). It took several years before some people began to exploit all the advantages of single & double jump combos in UT3.

                  Somwetimes it's trully amazing how intense the firefigts between extremely agile opponents could be - the close combat of two armored opponents could take up to 20-30 seconds and you still can see both guys retreating with enforcers for health & ammo at the end. While UT2k4 also have such intense moments, it usually mid to long range shootouts and the close combat quickly turns into a mid range with dodge jumping. I've been in a lot of such situations and I really enjoy the tension & adrenaline of those close encounters Some people could find that quite exhausting and could argue that time-to-kill on that range is too long but it doesn't happen all the time, for me it's rather like "sweet moments" of UT. The "panic" is also a thing, close encounters usually forсe you to shoot & move as fast as you can so you're likely to make more mistakes. It's easy to be disorientated so the calm mind matters

                  Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                  I'm not saying double jumps should have the same power of a normal jump because that would be stupid. I'm in favor of diminishing returns when double jump is not as powerful as single but if it's only 25-30% of a jump then it's just not useful as a jump it's use is a controlled dodgejump. Idealy I think something more in the range of 35-40% of a jump would be better suited for something called double-jump. Not scale breaking but not ultra precision required either.
                  Well, double jump actually gives you almost the same power. It's 620/600 Z gain for sj & dj on the screen above The amount of actual height boost however is not equal to a single 1220 one, it's rather between 800-850. The gravity matters, you have to subtract it's influence from every single Z gain. The gravity and Z boost are also the only two things that define how long it takes to perform every single move cause the time to land based only on Z component. That's why the dodge-jump is actually a slower move than regular dodge and a single jump on their own.
                  As for the horizontal distance - dodge-jump takes you a lot further than dodge while double jump is just a little bit further. You're also can jodge-jump to walldodge to another walldodge in UT4 and that's probably would be too insane
                  Last edited by K-2; 03-14-2015, 03:55 AM.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Specter_ View Post
                    It is baseless. You still don't get the point that any movement mechanic there is will change the map design. If there was only a single jump allowed in UT3, everything would be scaled smaller to compensate for no double jump. The same would happen if double jump was present - everything would be scaled larger. There is no default (as in, single jump isn't the "default" out of the two) between single and double jumping. It's completely relative to whatever game it's in. It's not like the map designer HAS to make all the ledges double jump distance either. It's completely up to the map maker whether or not they want to make the gap bigger or smaller; and you can't use the argument that this creates inconsistency because again, other mechanics would change the design as well. If there is a ledge that seems a good distance away (in a game without double jump), but there is no way to single jump to it - what do you do? You could either: wall dodge (if possible), hammer jump, rocket jump etc. etc. etc... There are so many possibilities that could deem the movement as "inconsistent", but then, we'd have to consider the movement of every single UT game inconsistent.
                    I Agree! It's not because you have double jump that everything could only be double jumped.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                      Movement in all the game is inconsistent with each other in most ways.

                      I never said anything about how movement mechanics change how maps are made. The problem is if you can be in the air for longer there are certain factors you have to account for whether you like it or not. It's unavoidable.

                      If you make a map in UT and you have carefully set it up so there are gaps that cannot be traversed by jumping over them, then you add double jump then all those gaps can be cleareed. That completely changes the flow.

                      If you take a map like that and port it to 2k4, you are going to make that gap wider to keep the same map flow. That increases the scale.

                      The same can be said for ledges/boxes that you can/can't jump on.

                      Whether it is the mappers fault or not is kind of immaterial. The fact you can sail through the air a lot longer changes the tactical considerations of a map. You can either design your maps so they don't have these kinds of penalizing areas (which is what Toxikk seems to be going for) or you can increase the map scale (which is what 2k3 and 2k4 did). You can't do nothing.

                      Do other mechanics carry similar considerations? Yes. However most mechanics that don't put you in the air don't change the considerations as dramatically as those that do put you in the air do. You can ignore that there is a difference if you want, but I have two whole games of evidence for dodge jump and three whole games of evidence for double jump where these scaling/sizing problems happened.
                      I still didn't understood what's the problem with the scale. I play Titanfall and some spaces must be big to fit the titans, but there are a lot of spaces where titans doesn't fit and it's OK. Another thing is the rocket jump and wallrun. You are able to, but I dont see it all the time in the game. And the game doesn't have any inconsistency because that diference between titans and pilots.

                      Comment


                        Rocket jump is a hard penalty and wall run is basically useless right now because the fall off is too fast. UT has always been about hard penalties for big advantages which is one thing double/dodge jump remove.
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                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                          Rocket jump is a hard penalty and wall run is basically useless right now because the fall off is too fast. UT has always been about hard penalties for big advantages which is one thing double/dodge jump remove.
                          Has it? I thought you could punt your translocator disk across the map in ctf with the impact hammer. For me UT has always been about fast, fun gameplay. I'm still waiting for Epic to add something that really sells the movement, and adds that feel 2k4 had.
                          UT4: CTF-Defiance, CTF-Melt.
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                            Originally posted by TotesAmaze View Post
                            Has it? I thought you could punt your translocator disk across the map in ctf with the impact hammer. For me UT has always been about fast, fun gameplay. I'm still waiting for Epic to add something that really sells the movement, and adds that feel 2k4 had.
                            Personally I think faster slide is that, but maybe it's just me.

                            Punting wasn't designed into UT and was abused to all heck.
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                              Originally posted by nvz View Post
                              This is what I do not like to see in the forums. Most of the logical members on this forum want a new game, not a 4K HD remake of a game that came out 10 years ago.
                              Battlefield Hardline is out, I'm sure it will meet your standard of logic with regards to being a "New" Battlefield experience, but for those of us who were asked to provide our opinion on what we are interested and excited to see from a new UT game, we are more than glad to lower your IQ by 100 points to voice our desires to reinstate play mechanics long since removed from one of our most beloved twitch shooters.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Crage View Post
                                Battlefield Hardline is out, I'm sure it will meet your standard of logic with regards to being a "New" Battlefield experience, but for those of us who were asked to provide our opinion on what we are interested and excited to see from a new UT game, we are more than glad to lower your IQ by 100 points to voice our desires to reinstate play mechanics long since removed from one of our most beloved twitch shooters.
                                Exactly!

                                While it's completely unscientific and impossible to substantiate, I knew a lot of 99 players who would have been perfectly happy with "The same game with better graphics, some new maps and maybe a new weapon or two, a mutator or a gametype." Pretty much all of them bought 2k3, most of those bought 2k4 but less than a year later very few were still playing and even those played far less frequently than they used to.

                                Out of the 30 or so players I knew fairly well from local servers, beer calls and semi regular adult UT LAN parties only 5 actually really liked 2k3/2k4 and those were the youngest ones.

                                That's why I keep saying keep the core gameplay simple and casual/noob friendly and leave the crazy stuff for mutators and mods.
                                Last edited by MoxNix; 03-21-2015, 08:56 PM.

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