[PROTOTYPE] Movement Flow (+ Video Comparison)

[VirtualPancake]

...or: Bringing the dodgejump back into the game.
Here it is: A dodge jump that doesn't break map scale/weapon balance and all that other stuff some people attribute to it. Below are the reasons, why.
This is a thread to find out the possible caveats there still may be with this movement and what could be done to counter them.

I've been experimenting with Sir_Brizz's movement prototyper which you can find here: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-%28Mutator%29

Some quick bullets:
- The dodge is SHORTER than vanilla
- The dodge jump allows for a TAD longer distances than vanilla dodge (but nothing like twice the distance)
- The overal travel speed remains more or less the same as with vanilla movement
- The overal height/distance values feel in tone with the more grounded direction of the new UT to me, but that's a matter of taste and totally tweakable
- Successive walldodges are more of an actual walldodge than a wall-nodge'n'plunge to allow for better walldodge chaining

For the video comparison I chose
- Outpost-23, because it apparently represents Epics idea of how the map size/layout should feel like
- to illustrate the navigation along the same path, so a direct comparison is possible
- to not include slides, so we can focus on the dodge jump mechanic rather than mixing up everything
- to not include combat situations (which is quite different regarding effective movement), since it's incredibly hard to reproduce situations with equal preconditions for a direct comparison. I may try that out eventually, though.

I apologize for the video quality. My current machine isn't able to capture in-game better.
However, I included some audiovisual overlays that should make it effortless to follow what's happening.

Vanilla movement:

With Dodge-/Doublejumping:

My conclusions, which are also partially in response to the opinions Epic shared in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z91EHZTOyJ0
(Please don't bother to answer if you can't/won't think any further than what they mentioned back then)

• Variance ("There's no reason to dodge when I can dodge jump")
  As you can see in my breakdown at the end of the videos, this is not true. In order to navigate efficently you NEED to mix it up.
  With only dodge jumping, I'd constantly be hitting everything around me, slowing me down. I would constantly overshoot the points where I need to be on the ground again to be able to pull off the next move. Most of them don't work if you are one or two feet off. Timing is very crucial. This can't work well if you are forced into a repetitive and narrow pool of options. As you can see with vanilla movement it's basically just dodges and walldodges. Always the same rhythm, where I'm often too long in the air to stay flexible.
  Examples:
  [vanilla-00:03] I almost need to set back for that dodge down to the bio, so I don't end up bumping my head at the doorway. The single walldodge sent me landing halfway within the room, so an additional dodge is prone to make me hit my head.
  [prototype-00:04] No problem: I land at roughly the same spot, but with a single dodge down to the bio I'm not in a crucial distance to hit my head.
  [vanilla-00:12] A dodge through the door would lead me down the drill room. It's just too wide for the narrow ramp to be of any use here. I chose to break the flow and walk around that corner.
  [prototype-00:12] No problem: When dropping down from the belt, I utilize the smaller distance of the single dodge, so a second dodge gets me just through the doorway inside without overshooting that ledge.
  [vanilla-00:20] I want to make a wall dodge from that doorway entering the bio-room in front of me. However the previous dodge sent me too far. If I dodge now, I'm gonna land in the middle of the doorway. Too far to make that walldodge from the doorway wall. So I chose to just walk there (=> breaks the flow).
  [prototype-00:22] No problem: Due to a smaller dodge, I can throw in a single walldodge (no walldodge-jump here!), so I end up landing just before the doorway and am able to do that walldodge at the edge of it.
  Moreover you can see that the amount of moves that are possible differs greatly (even if it seems that it's just ONE additional option). It's the combinations that make it diverse and fun to watch/pull off. This is in favor of the explicit wish of Epic that there should be a long way to master movement.
• Map scale/layout ("Do I need to increase all ceiling/doorway heights and room/corridor widths with dodge jumps for movement to work?")
  No, you don't. You can't even jump in the middle of a lot of doorways with vanilla movement without hitting your head (00:04, 00:12). You shouldn't even do that in real life, so why would you expect it to work with double jumps?
  In the middle of a room I never hit a ceiling, since they are much taller than you could ever (double) jump - in the prototype as well as vanilla. No reason to make them taller, either.
  As for the room/corridor widths, I see more reason to widen them with vanilla movement, to be honest. Without the option of a shorter dodge, you are much more prone to collide with stuff around you. It's like trying to navigate through serpentines with a racing car that has no breaks and runs at 250 mph.
  Aside from that, you can of course make maps wide open or claustrophobic narrow by choice with ANY movement if you want. Just look at DM-Lea and DM-Tuba. No movement concept forced the designers to do it like that. Free choice/matter of taste.
• Reachability ("What about height and gap widths - I don't want to double the height/length of every object/gap!")
  The prototype dodge(jump) is not very high and it's length is not much longer than the vanilla single dodge. It doesn't let you reach a lot more places than before. Try it out yourselves. And the few things you can would only need minor adjustments. Nothing that makes everything all of the sudden so much more unrealistic compared to the player sizes.
  But beware: The more you prevent places from being reachable and gaps from being skippable the more you favor hitscan. If you can't close the gap to your opponent, you have to rely on long range weapons.
  As for objects you shall be able to stand on - it's fine if you can single jump them. They don't need to be so tall that you inevitably need a double jump.
• Groundedness ("Bahbah...too floaty...ut2004...bah")
  As this prototype dodge jump is not very high, this still feels quite in line with the desired groundedness. Doesn't seem like "crouching tiger, hidden dragon, fighting through the trees" at all. Nobody said that dodge/double jumps have to be very high and pull the whole battle into midair. I reckon you could even lower the jump heights more and it would still work.
• Hitscan vs. projectile ("But dodgejump means hitscan fest")
  Weapon values are tweakable. You can increase splash damage, increase DPS of projectiles and do much more if people escape them too easily or use hitscan too often.
  However, as of right now, projectiles seem to be quite OP anyways. So why not counter this by a tad more escapability of projectiles? This thread speaks volumes: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...ets-and-combos
  Some people say: "But competitive play is a whole another story." Well, check out the frag stats from this community event's duels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro7PQ_lgI8o)

Dypper				PhantomLord
	Sniper	|			Rockets	|||
	Stinger	|			Sniper	||
	Flak Shell	|			Link Primary	||
	Flak Shards	||
	Shock Combo	|||
	Shock Beam	|
	Rockets	||
	27% hitscan frags				29% hitscan frags
Xios				Jayoplus
	Flak Shards	|||			Link Primary	|
	Shock Combo	||			Rockets	||||| |||
					Sniper	|
	0% hitscan frags				1% hitscan frags
Hypno				Gib
	Link Shaft	|			Shock Combo	|
	Sniper	||||| ||||| |
	Flak Shell	|
	Rockets	||||| ||||| |||||
	Shock Core	|
	Shock Combo	|
	41% hitscan frags				0% hitscan frags
Zaccubus				Jayoplus
	Rockets	||||| ||||| |			Flak Shards	|
	Link Shaft	|
	Stinger Shards	||
	Sniper	||||| |
	Flak Shards	|||
	Shock Combo	|
	29% hitscan frags				0% hitscan frags
Hypno				Zaccubus
	Rockets	||||| ||||			Shock Combo	|
	Shock Combo	||||| |			Stinger Shards	|
	0% hitscan frags				0% hitscan frags

That's an average of 24% hitscan frags!
Sure, hitscan weapons were also in use when there were no frags made with them. But so were projectile weapons.
This is no foundation for the whole hitscan-fest-argument against a mechanic that makes projectiles a bit weaker.

• Skill balance ("Movement skill shall not be more important than weapon skill")
  I don't get how restricting movement makes weapon skill more important...
  The less movement is suitable for escaping projectiles the less important the weapon skill with projectile becomes as well.
  The two are kind of associated in symbiosis. If movement is flexible and sophisticated as hell, it's also very hard and skill prone to hit with weapons.
  You can't dumb down one of them and expect the other to stay the same.
• Flow
  I don't know whether you can tell from only looking at it, but this feels SO much more fluent and satisfying than vanilla movement. With the possible combinations you have quite a pool of options to choose from that make all sense in specific situations. Due to flexibility you can choose to traverse a map in a so much higher number of fashions, increasing the fun to play and try out as well as encouraging different playstyles and freshening spectator experience. The level geometry doesn't provide you with specific launching points where it is possible AND useful to dodge, which would decrease variety and increase predictability, but you are more free to utilize all the movement options you got.
  Movement should never feel restrictive!

So try it out, tell me what you think. What could be improved? What already works well in your opinion? What are the caveats?
Here are the values you need to copy into your MovementPrototyper.ini

[/Script/Mutator_MovementPrototyper.Mutator_MovementPrototyper]
DefaultBaseEyeHeight=71.000000
HealthMax=100
SuperHealthMax=199
DamageScaling=1.000000
FireRateMultiplier=1.000000
bSpawnProtectionEligible=True
MaxSafeFallSpeed=2400.000000
FallingDamageFactor=100.000000
CrushingDamageFactor=2.000000
EmoteSpeed=1.000000
TeamPlayerIndicatorMaxDistance=2700.000000
PlayerIndicatorMaxDistance=1200.000000
MaxStackedArmor=200
MinAdditiveDodgeFallSpeed=-5000.000000
MaxAdditiveDodgeJumpSpeed=700.000000
WallDodgeTraceDist=50.000000
MaxMultiJumpCount=1
MaxWalkSpeed=900.000000
MaxAcceleration=7500.000000
BrakingDecelerationWalking=7500.000000
WalkableFloorZ=0.695000
GravityScale=1.000000
AirControl=0.400000
MultiJumpAirControl=0.400000
JumpZVelocity=650.000000
DodgeImpulseHorizontal=1000.000000
DodgeImpulseVertical=425.000000
DodgeResetInterval=0.350000
DodgeLandingSpeedFactor=0.250000
bAllowJumpMultijumps=True
MultiJumpImpulse=675.000000
bAllowDodgeMultijumps=True
DodgeJumpLandingSpeedFactor=0.250000
DodgeJumpResetInterval=0.350000
DodgeJumpImpulse=625.000000
MaxWallDodges=99
WallDodgeImpulseHorizontal=1000.000000
WallDodgeImpulseVertical=425.000000
WallDodgeSecondImpulseVertical=425.000000
WallDodgeResetInterval=0.200000
WallDodgeMinNormal=0.500000
MaxConsecutiveWallDodgeDP=0.970000
WallDodgeGraceVelocityZ=-9999.000000
bAllowSlopeDodgeBoost=True
DodgeMaxHorizontalVelocity=9999.000000
MaxMultiJumpZSpeed=9999.000000
MaxFallingAcceleration=4200.000000
BrakingDecelerationFalling=0.000000
BrakingDecelerationSwimming=300.000000
SprintSpeed=1250.000000
SprintAccel=200.000000
AutoSprintDelayInterval=2.000000
LandingStepUp=40.000000
LandingAssistBoost=380.000000
MaxWalkSpeedCrouched=315.000000
MaxStepHeight=51.000000
NavAgentProps=0.000000
CrouchedHalfHeight=64.000000
RollHalfHeight=46.000000
SlopeDodgeScaling=0.930000
DodgeRollAcceleration=2000.000000
MaxDodgeRollSpeed=920.000000
DodgeRollDuration=0.450000
DodgeRollBonusTapInterval=0.170000
DodgeRollEarliestZ=-100.000000
RollEndingSpeedFactor=0.500000
FallingDamageRollReduction=6.000000
MaxSwimSpeed=1000.000000
MaxWaterSpeed=450.000000
Buoyancy=1.000000
SwimmingWallPushImpulse=730.000000
MaxSlideFallZ=-200.000000
SlideGravityScaling=0.200000
MinWallSlideSpeed=500.000000
MaxSlideAccelNormal=0.000000
EasyImpactImpulse=1100.000000
EasyImpactDamage=25.000000
FullImpactImpulse=1600.000000
FullImpactDamage=40.000000
ImpactMaxHorizontalVelocity=1500.000000
ImpactMaxVerticalFactor=1.000000
MaxUndampedImpulse=2000.000000
GroundFriction=8.000000
MaxFlySpeed=600.000000
BrakingDecelerationFlying=0.000000
AirControlBoostMultiplier=2.000000
AirControlBoostVelocityThreshold=25.000000
FallingLateralFriction=0.000000
TranslocatorBringUpTime=0.050000
TranslocatorPutDownTime=0.050000
ImpactHammerBringUpTime=0.050000
ImpactHammerPutDownTime=0.050000
WeaponBringUpTime=0.050000
WeaponPutDownTime=0.050000

[Stolid]

- to not include combat situations (which is quite different regarding effective movement), since it's incredibly hard to reproduce situations with equal preconditions for a direct comparison. I may try that out eventually, though.

Having also messed around with movement I reckon this is probably your biggest hurdle.
From what I understand DodgeImpulseVertical can't be much lower than it already is due to engine limitations as far as collisions.
If you raise that back up you're gonna get into more problems that you don't have now.
The DodgeImpulseHorizontal was already low and woefully inadequate to dodge projectiles with. It has been upped for the next build, but instead you've severely lowered it down compared to the current build.
The fact you can dodgejump won't help at all at this speed as you're already hit before you can jump again.

[VirtualPancake]

From what I understand DodgeImpulseVertical can't be much lower than it already is due to engine limitations as far as collisions.

Could you elaborate on this? I didn't notice any issues with collision using these values.

The DodgeImpulseHorizontal was already low and woefully inadequate to dodge projectiles with.
[...]
The fact you can dodgejump won't help at all at this speed as you're already hit before you can jump again.

Well...I tried these values against bots and it is actually easier to escape rockets with this dodge jump than with vanilla movement. Which doesn't really surprise me as the maximal distance is a bit higher using a dodge jump and the flexibility makes you less predictable with the extended options. Judging from the opinions I read on this forum, this has been the biggest concern of dodge jump enemies.
But as it currently can be quite woeful to dodge projectiles in fact, I reckon this works in favor of the weapon balance and the positive feedback loop of the player.

However, if my feeling on this is off and if this turns out to be even more difficult to dodge projectiles with, why not lower the projectile speed or the splash damage amount/radius?

[Stolid]

I can't really elaborate on it much more than that. The capsule gets caught on anything that isn't flat such as slopes or terrain. Outpost23 probably isn't likely to show it.

As you can see in this video by nuxx, distance won't help you at all as far as avoidability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRSfmF20mc4
The hits happen in mid-air while going at full dodge speed. The speed is too slow to avoid it, it's not so much that the distance is too small.
Your dodge isn't even a real dodge anymore, its a low arc jump. Your dodge speed is a tiny 5% higher than current walking speed so you almost might as well keep walking or bunnyhopping, it barely adds anything as far as dodging things goes.
For comparison, UT99 dodge speed is 50% higher than walking speed.

The only way it allows you to easier escape rockets is simply by increasing the gap between you and your opponent to the point where rockets become ineffective. Predictability has little to do with it when rockets that aren't predicted already can't be avoided.

You could lower projectile speed and splash damage radius (it probably still has to for the combo and rocket with the new movement) but with a dodge at this walking speed you'd have to basically make them avoidable by strafing. If you do that then strafing becomes the preferred way to dodge rockets as it doesn't have the disadvantage of being predictable that dodges have. Since strafing is already the preferred way to avoid hitscan you turn dodge into something that is only useful for traveling across the map and even at that it isn't great unless you go over a gap or dodge off of something higher. If you don't have to do any of this then sprint becomes significantly faster than using dodging.

[An1MuS]

My first impression from watching the video is that you might as well be flying.

[Aberiu]

I don't like your movement. It's not floaty enough!
Seriously though, thank you for doing this. Glad somebody still tries to discuss dodge jump in a constructive manner.

[iMpure]

Very nice breakdown of the dodgejump right here... because the wallwalk and slide are just so stiff they just don't belong in the game i am really sorry epic.
I barely even use these types of movements... the infinite walldodges are fun and brought something new to the game You can fake alot of people with moves like that.
With the right balance this game will become something really awesome i am all in on what this guy is representing

[VirtualPancake]

The capsule gets caught on anything that isn't flat such as slopes or terrain. Outpost23 probably isn't likely to show it.

Well, where can I reproduce it then and what is the exact issue occurring?
As far as I understand, they flattened the dodge in the current build anyways. So it seems legit to do so.

As you can see in this video by nuxx, distance won't help you at all as far as avoidability.

This is only half the truth.
With constant gravity you can increase either the vertical or the horizontal impulse in order to achieve a higher horizontal distance.
Both options imply that your initial speed is increased and thus will get you further away from the splash damage center on impact time.
The video just shows that the values at that time didn't work.

But thanks for pointing that out. This is actually another another means to balance movement against projectiles:
Feel like rockets hit too often? We can make the dodge and dodge jump faster but flatter.
Feel like rockets hit too seldom? We can make the dodge and dodge jump slower but higher.

There is no excuse anymore that this can't work out with projectiles balanced well against hitscan.

Your dodge speed is a tiny 5% higher than current walking speed so you almost might as well keep walking or bunnyhopping, it barely adds anything as far as dodging things goes.

Fair enough. So we could
- increase doge and dodge jump speed or
- decrease strafing speed
Or is there a point against that?

The only way it allows you to easier escape rockets is simply by increasing the gap between you and your opponent to the point where rockets become ineffective.

The fact you can dodgejump won't help at all at this speed as you're already hit before you can jump again.

There's a wide gap between rockets being ineffective and them being unavoidable.
If you bring up both in regards to my prototype, I'm confused. How do they fit together?

My first impression from watching the video is that you might as well be flying.

I'm guessing you're refering to the prototype video and not the vanilla one?
In that case I agree that it makes it seem like you can fly. At least it sort of feels more like it.
In fact, that's very good and elevates the flow aspect of the whole thing!
If basically just the additional option to dodgejump or dodge shorter can make you feel limitless, we should totally go for that!

I don't like your movement. It's not floaty enough!
Seriously though, thank you for doing this. Glad somebody still tries to discuss dodge jump in a constructive manner.

Haha! Well, floatiness is debatable. First of all my goal was to throw the old prejudices against the dodge jump into disarray. It doesn't HAVE to be all floaty just because of how it has been in previous titles.
And the fact that the usually very vocal group of dodge jump enemies has become quite silent is remarkable

@iMpure: Thanks for the encouragement!

[Stolid]

Well, where can I reproduce it then and what is the exact issue occurring?
As far as I understand, they flattened the dodge in the current build anyways. So it seems legit to do so.

There aren't really many maps with realistic terrain at the moment, but what you'd get would be either getting caught mid-dodge all the time or doing slope dodges on tiny slopes in the terrain all the time.
They did lower it, but by less than 5%, not anywhere near your value and if I had to guess to as low as they will ever lower it.

This is only half the truth.
With constant gravity you can increase either the vertical or the horizontal impulse in order to achieve a higher horizontal distance.
Both options imply that your initial speed is increased and thus will get you further away from the splash damage center on impact time.
The video just shows that the values at that time didn't work.

But thanks for pointing that out. This is actually another another means to balance movement against projectiles:
Feel like rockets hit too often? We can make the dodge and dodge jump faster but flatter.
Feel like rockets hit too seldom? We can make the dodge and dodge jump slower but higher.

There is no excuse anymore that this can't work out with projectiles balanced well against hitscan.

That's the problem, you can't make them any flatter than they are in the current build, at least AFAIK.
The dodge speed is already very comparable to any other UT, so increasing the speed isn't likely to happen either, increasing the speed on your prototype but slower than previous build will require significant changes to weapons.

Fair enough. So we could
- increase doge and dodge jump speed or
- decrease strafing speed
Or is there a point against that?

Dodge speed has increased last build to match more closely with the speed from previous UT games, any faster and the distance will become a problem as they can't get much flatter.
Strafing speed has long been an issue (both for feel as well as for avoiding things) and strafing in general is faster in the latest build. People are very pleased with this and virtually no one will want that back, let alone slower than previous build.

There's a wide gap between rockets being ineffective and them being unavoidable.
If you bring up both in regards to my prototype, I'm confused. How do they fit together?

I mean the rockets become ineffective not because you can avoid rockets with this movement, but because you can avoid the other opponent with this movement. One is reacting to rockets being fired at you, the other is escaping/running away from an opponent.
The former is what people experience as being a problem even with the latest movement. That part will only get worse with this prototype.


What I'm basically saying is that unfortunately I can't see a way in which this prototype (or anything that approaches it) can work in UT4, unless you completely redesign both maps and weapons specifically for it.

[THENUMBER1]

Ur prototype movement isnt necesary and will unbalance CTF. Those big floatly jumps, is exactly what UT4 doesnt need... Good try anyway.

[Chrissss0r]

While i really appreciate the effort you put into the analysis the video really confirms the suspicions I had about your movements skills based on your previous posts.

This might be a bit off-topic but just some hints:

1. When you are not performing a dodge you have your W permanently pressed.
2. You do not strafe at all to position yourself prior to dodges. For this reason you constantly(!) jump into walls/obstacles which slows you down
3. You did not once change your direction/movement vector after landing from a dodge
4. You did not once use a forward dodge. I guess this is due to constantly pressing W anyways

Any these are just the painfully obvious things. The many others are hard to put into words.

Yes it's easy to ***** at a video and not put anything out so sory for that. Please take it as advice and try to look at the videos with my comments in mind.

[VirtualPancake]

There aren't really many maps with realistic terrain at the moment, but what you'd get would be either getting caught mid-dodge all the time or doing slope dodges on tiny slopes in the terrain all the time.

If I could never reproduce it with the maps that exist by now, where is your assumption coming from, then?

They did lower it, but by less than 5%, not anywhere near your value and if I had to guess to as low as they will ever lower it.

You seem to be clued-in on the current values and changes =)
Can I look them up somewhere?

so increasing the speed isn't likely to happen either

"Not likely to happen because different than ut99 (or any other ut)" is not a valid point. This is a new game and Epic has said so numreous times.

strafing in general is faster in the latest build. People are very pleased with this and virtually no one will want that back, let alone slower than previous build.

I'm sorry, but averting specific progress because of subjective judgement of past changes or status quo are only "valid" in a populist/conservative mindset.
It may be your opinion that movement improved specifically because of strafing speed increase, but it's not a point against a few different changes that lead to a different outcome.

I mean the rockets become ineffective not because you can avoid rockets with this movement, but because you can avoid the other opponent with this movement.

Still confused...
What do you mean by "avoid the opponent"? Run away from him? He can chase after you with the same speed you flee with.
Can you "avoid the opponent" while at the same time not being able to avoid his rockets? If so, how?
How can the option to make a smaller dodge even possibly make for "avoiding the opponent" better than with just one large dodge?
How is reacting to rockets being fired getting worse? Have you tried this prototype already?

What I'm basically saying is that unfortunately I can't see a way in which this prototype (or anything that approaches it) can work in UT4, unless you completely redesign both maps and weapons specifically for it.

Well, what would be necessary to do with maps/weapons in your opinion and how would it benefit the movement?

Ur prototype movement isnt necesary and will unbalance CTF.

And why is that? Please be specific and assume that not your taste alone defines what is "necessary". (What do you mean by "necessary" anyways?)

Those big floatly jumps

I'm not sure whether you are aware of the height and width you can cover in this prototype. It is certainly not much higher/wider than vanilla.


@Chrissss0r:
Hmm...it would be beneficial if you read the examples I wrote below the videos where I describe in a few examples where and why I DO actually HAVE to adjust myself between the dodges. Examples where breaking the flow by disrupting forward momentum or by dull walking around corners is the only option to not bump into stuff with vanilla movement.
The good thing is that my prototype shows you don't NEED to do it that often. With the smaller dodge option, I can make myself land where I don't HAVE to constantly break flow and momentum in order to adjust myself for the next dodge. That is my goal: Effortless yet difficult to master movement that is fun to perform as opposed to feeling like an elephant in a small cage.
I understand that it can be difficult to grasp by just watching a video. But that's why I provided all the values. Try it out yourself =)

[Stolid]

If I could never reproduce it with the maps that exist by now, where is your assumption coming from, then?

It can actually already be experienced by dodging up the center slope on deck with the current movement.

You seem to be clued-in on the current values and changes =)
Can I look them up somewhere?

The editor provides the values in the current build via the character blueprint. Git has the values that have been commited since then and are due for the next build.

"Not likely to happen because different than ut99 (or any other ut)" is not a valid point. This is a new game and Epic has said so numreous times.

It is a valid point as Epic has also said they want to deemphasize dodging for map traversal. They have always talked about being more predictable and committing to your movement. Dodges that take very little time aren't as predictable.

I'm sorry, but averting specific progress because of subjective judgement of past changes or status quo are only "valid" in a populist/conservative mindset.
It may be your opinion that movement improved specifically because of strafing speed increase, but it's not a point against a few different changes that lead to a different outcome.

Subjective judgement matters, people didn't feel like it felt fast/fun so you won't get any support for slower strafing from anyone.

Still confused...
What do you mean by "avoid the opponent"? Run away from him? He can chase after you with the same speed you flee with.
Can you "avoid the opponent" while at the same time not being able to avoid his rockets? If so, how?
How can the option to make a smaller dodge even possibly make for "avoiding the opponent" better than with just one large dodge?
How is reacting to rockets being fired getting worse? Have you tried this prototype already?

Yes, running away. I'm not saying that will definitely be effective, but it was effective in 2k4 to avoid combat, especially against projectiles.

Well, what would be necessary to do with maps/weapons in your opinion and how would it benefit the movement?

If you brought it more in line with current movement values like the strafing and dodge speed maps would have to be a good bit bigger. With the values for them in the prototype projectiles would have to be a lot slower to be able to dodge them.
Alternatively you could also change both, but not as much. Then you'd have to change both the maps and the weapons, but also by not as much.

[x0nic_]

Seriously, I don't get the general bashing here. This proto is exactly what I imagine a fast-paced FPS to look like; and it even seems to suit the actual map design much better than vanilla does.

Even though I can only judge from what I see in the videos (since I'm currently still compiling the engine/editor and gonna download the game tomorrow), I am already quite sure that THIS is the very first mutator I'm going to implement permanently. Anyway, I tend to doubt that the vanilla movement in its current state could ever look that cool and smooth, even regarding the possibility that OPs movement skills might suck a bit (which I cannot assess yet - however, his remarks below the vids seem legit to me, so I don't really mind).

TL;DR: This one looks epic to me, great work! I will write a more detailed feedback when I finally got my hands on it in-game

Cheers, xnc

[VirtualPancake]

It can actually already be experienced by dodging up the center slope on deck with the current movement.

Guess what...in ut99 you couldn't perform a full-length dodge up that slope, either. What do you expect? After all it's a horizontal dodge, not a vertical jump. Naturally, you can't expect your collision to be unaffected by slopes you dodge into.
The other slopes in deck and most slopes in Outpost23 are even steeper. So what? With the slide mechanic in the game you can now even prevent your forward momentum to get interrupted when dodging into slopes.

"Not likely to happen because different than ut99 (or any other ut)" is not a valid point. This is a new game and Epic has said so numreous times.

It is a valid point as Epic has also said they want to deemphasize dodging for map traversal.

??
This has nothing to do whatsoever with the proposal of increasing dodge speed. Neither with the fact that nothing is "unlikely to happen" just because of similarities between status quo and status ut99.

Yes, running away. I'm not saying that will definitely be effective, but it was effective in 2k4 to avoid combat, especially against projectiles.

Please, put your personal differences with ut2004 aside. This is not to discuss the past.
Anyways...how can you run away from an opponent that chases you with the same speed that you flee with? It's not like the attacker has restricted movement and the defender has overpowered movement. They have both equal potential. Where does this notion come from that you could somehow escape your opponent with ANY movement at all? If you dodgejump away, I can dodgejump right after you.

If you brought it more in line with current movement values like the strafing and dodge speed maps would have to be a good bit bigger

Ok, so if bringing it more in line with current movement means that maps need to be bigger, you seem to recognize that vanilla movement is quite prone to cause a problem with map sizes?
Well...maybe they just are too cramped for the current movement.

With the values for them in the prototype projectiles would have to be a lot slower to be able to dodge them.

To be honest, I reckon this step is necessary anyways to some extent. Probably not "a lot" slower, but I feel like the majority of the frags you get with flak, rockets and shock combos are in no way near deserved or satisfying. And I say it again: You are free to try out the values I provided. I don't get the feeling that it is harder to escape rockets with my prototype.



@x0nic_: Thanks for raising your voice! Glad that you acknowledge where I'm coming from!
I'm looking forward to hearing your detailed feedback.