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Movement Flow (+ Video Comparison)

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    #76
    @Stolid:
    Originally posted by Stolid View Post
    From a developers point of view that's an entirely understandable preference though.
    As I said before - it could only be made understandable in a casual game environment, where you could argue to ditch dodging altogether as well. Or weapon jumping. Or crouching. Or sliding.
    Fortunately, this is no casual game. So why would you want to deprive a core gamer of features just because noobs won't discover/conceive them immediately?
    So no. Not an understandable preference.

    Originally posted by Stolid View Post
    If your dodge is very short and the delay is the same you effectively become more predictable as far as your general location is concerned.
    More predictable compared to strafing alone, yes. But less predictable compared to a longer dodge.
    It doesn't matter how long the delay or how short the dodge is for this to be true.

    Originally posted by Stolid View Post
    It would become similar to strafing which while not very predictable is very ineffective against rockets.
    Exactly...and just as strafing isn't almost entirely useless, a short dodge wouldn't become almost entirely useless either, no matter how short (i.e. how similar to strafing) you make it.

    Originally posted by Stolid View Post
    so they too would take about half the time of the default dodge.
    So we're on the same page that dodge durations in the video aren't significantly different from the first graph? Glad we clarified that.
    Nevertheless I'd appreciate if you tried out the prototype before you just assumed that there was a problem with the reaction time. As I said:
    The values used in the video didn't cause any problems with that time window (nor has it required to dodge jump "virtually instantly" after the dodge).
    It doesn't even feel that different from ut2004 regarding the time between dodge and jump, despite it being a bit shorter. And I'm quite positive we counteracted that sufficiently with the latest graph.

    @MonsOlympus:
    Can you describe how UC2 and TF2 are different in that aspect?
    Last edited by VirtualPancake; 08-01-2015, 05:18 PM.

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      #77
      Originally posted by VirtualPancake View Post
      More predictable compared to strafing alone, yes. But less predictable compared to a longer dodge.
      It only becomes less predictable as far as direction goes, but not as far as general location. If the way in which you are more predictable doesn't actually save you from getting hit by splash damage it isn't worth it.

      Exactly...and just as strafing isn't almost entirely useless, a short dodge wouldn't become almost entirely useless either, no matter how short (i.e. how similar to strafing) you make it.
      It would become almost entirely useless as a way to strafe because of the dodge delay, almost entirely useless as far as map travel, almost entirely useless against hitscan because of the dodge delay and almost entirely useless against projectiles/splash damage because of the distance and dodge delay.

      Nevertheless I'd appreciate if you tried out the prototype before you just assumed that there was a problem with the reaction time.
      The mutator hasn't been updated for 2 builds (2 months).

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        #78
        Originally posted by VirtualPancake View Post
        @MonsOlympus:
        Can you describe how UC2 and TF2 are different in that aspect?
        The apex in those games is alot more lax, it allows jumping when youre on the downward part of the arc or earlier in the upward of the arc as well. Traditionally there is a smaller window for dodge jump and shortening the dodge as Stolid is saying will give a player less time to not only decide but to perform a dodge jump.

        The main difference between UC2 and TF2 is the air control aspect, that TF2s scout can essentially dodge in the air after jumping to move out of the way of enemy fire, this could solve some of the predictability issues. As far as I can tell what we are discussing here is actually expanding the movement in a way that works rather than just porting for legacy sake, if that were the case there was such a thing as an air dodge in UT2004 which is similar to a wall dodge but performed in the air. I think having more control of the jump direction using some form of context sensitive movement as in the TF2 scout could be the way to go, even to the point a double jump could be an alternative input option for a dodge jump but more of a jump dodge with dodge jump becoming a double dodge.
        Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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          #79
          @Stolid:
          It only becomes less predictable as far as direction goes, but not as far as general location.
          The fact there is a dodgejump that allows you to land at two different locations makes you inherently less predictable
          Inherently less predictable? And now not even less predictable regarding "general location"?

          If the way in which you are more predictable doesn't actually save you from getting hit by splash damage it isn't worth it.
          If a dodge brings you faster away from the splash center than strafing it IS worth it because you'll lose less HP and get propelled up less in the air. And dependent on the travel speed and distance of the projectile, a tiny little dodge may be all you need to clear the rest of the distance you already made. It's not as binary as "clear the splash damage or don't".
          Furthermore:
          Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
          A key thing people always fail to mention is that when you are dodging you are not just moving out of the way of splash damage, there are numerous reasons a person may dodge, like to get a clear firing line for example and being back on the ground quickly can help you steady aim. That is just one example, another is that you might be dodging the projectiles in flight to avoid someone trying to hit you in the air, such as link projectiles, this leaves you less vulnerable without any need to adjust aircontrol since you hit the ground quicker and can change direction quicker, which also improves juking ability.

          The mutator hasn't been updated for 2 builds (2 months).
          Nevertheless I'd appreciate if you tried out the prototype before you just assumed that there was a problem with the reaction time.
          The prototype was perfectly playable as you started to give your feedback on this thread. I am sorry, but what do you expect? It doesn't feel very constructive seeing people bash a prototype they never tried out themselves in the first place.



          @MonsOlympus:
          The apex in those games is alot more lax, it allows jumping when youre on the downward part of the arc or earlier in the upward of the arc as well.
          I see. Actually, I've been playing with that idea in my head as well and I think it would feel very well to extend that time window. Let's try that out!
          However, the time window of decision around the apex of the single dodge should probably be restricted somewhat, so we can still retain a certain level of commitment.

          even to the point a double jump could be an alternative input option for a dodge jump but more of a jump dodge with dodge jump becoming a double dodge.
          Alternative input option? Jump dodge? Sorry, didn't get that

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            #80
            Originally posted by VirtualPancake View Post
            Inherently less predictable? And now not even less predictable regarding "general location"?
            Yes, less predictable as far as exact location, but as the distance between not dodging, dodging and dodge jumping decreases the exact locations close in on being the same general location.

            If a dodge brings you faster away from the splash center than strafing it IS worth it because you'll lose less HP and get propelled up less in the air. And dependent on the travel speed and distance of the projectile, a tiny little dodge may be all you need to clear the rest of the distance you already made. It's not as binary as "clear the splash damage or don't".
            Sure, it's better to do it than to not do it, but it would be wholly inadequate. For every decently aimed projectile coming at you you will be forced to dodgejump, making the dodge not worth it. Since a very short dodge would add very little else to the game in other circumstances, it's also not really worth having that single dodge in the game at all. Or in other words it's not worth it to have to do a dodgejump if it gets you the dodge distance you want the vast majority of the time anyway.
            Unless that single dodge would represent around half the amount of dodges people do, I personally don't consider it worth it to have it in the game.

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              #81
              hurr durr hurr

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