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Please consider dodge vertical height adjustment

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    Please consider dodge vertical height adjustment

    I felt this thread is needed or else the info will be drowned in there with all that rest of the feedback and I've played this build enough to consider knowing how it plays like to make constructive criticism.

    - The rockets become extremely powerful with no vertical height since you are hugging the floor and the splash damage does so huge damage as a result.

    - Makes the movement feel very (unsatisfyingly) heavy.

    - The wallrun gets extremely limited in useability due the limited vertical movement, works mostly at places like an end of a platform to continue running instead of being able to effectively use it as an evasive movement on any floor with a wall next to it. It just feels not satisfying to use as a result most of the time.

    - You get stuck in the environment with the smallest bump to it. CTF-Bigrock is a good example. Now you cannot also even dodge up the tigh pads+2x30hp at the jumppad area on DM-Temple, that "bump" isn't even any high at all, that should AT LEAST be possible to dodge up.

    - Rockets splash damage/size should be nerfed for sure (seems like it's done for upcoming build) but in return you should get a more effective way of using splash damage to your advantage which a higher dodge height promotes, being able to fire at a more downwards angle. This leads to better skill lvl as far as Rocket Launcher goes, firing at the peak of the dodge to get a more steep downwards angle when firing at the opponents feet should be rewarded. This worked well/was very rewarding in UT3 in particular.

    - Suggestion to slightly speed up the dodge velocity to keep roughly the same airtime as currently => very slightly more effective evasiness (more non-linear curve + increased velocity leading to slightly bit increased difficulty to track the opponent during the dodge, headshots in particular)

    - I'd say the ideal dodge height is probably somewhere between currently and the UT3 dodge as far as how it would fit with the scaling and overall weapon mechanics etc. Doesn't need a very drastic boost. I personally thought the dodge vertical height was fine before it got adjusted down, would just have wanted a slight velocity boost to make it somewhat more effective.
    Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 07-24-2015, 02:40 AM.

    #2
    Where did you see RL splash was nerfed?

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      #3
      Originally posted by wheredaweaps View Post
      Where did you see RL splash was nerfed?
      I've seen people report it in the IRC channel that have checked the github commits. Supposedly not very drastic change though. I personally do not want to check github changes since it's more of a fun/surprise when the build finally arrives to read through the excessive changelog.

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        #4
        Originally posted by wheredaweaps View Post
        Where did you see RL splash was nerfed?
        Was announced in the last stream as a change for the next build. I don't believe the damage itself was nerfed though, just that the damage radius (along with combo radius) was slightly reduced.

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          #5
          Thanks for the replies. Be interesting to see if those changes make any difference to the gameplay, I don't think it will be noticable unless the radius got shrunk by 50% or something. Ball speed is too fast as well.

          On topic I agree with your points but I'd prefer see the movement kept grounded and weapons worked around that instead of making it more floaty.

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            #6
            To make wallrun useful which is a good mechanic although does barely come handy right now tweaking dodge is the only option though and I personally do not like how heavy the dodge feels like as well as not being able to jump over the tiniest possible bumps in the environment. :P

            Did UT3 feel floaty? It had a really high dodge vertical curve (significantly higher than UT4 initially had even), I don't think it felt floaty at all since the speed of it was so fast (although it was inititally fast but faded out which is a good thing to make it more effective at doding combos in particular).

            Right now I cannot even disable view bob since that makes it feel too annoyingly horizontal/low for my taste so much I just hate how it feels so I leave it on, the view bob at least helps slightly bit making it feel like the dodge is more vertical than it is due to the landing adjustment.

            I'm not proposing a drastic change, roughly where it was before would likely be fine, it was just a bit too slow making you too predictable (shoot where the guy lands). It also felt better and gave more time to activate with slide. Now you have to press the keys pretty fast on an even or a slightly slanting upwards surface which can annoy some people I guess, particularly with mechanical keys with MX Blue or Green or so.
            Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 07-24-2015, 08:56 AM.

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              #7
              Yeah fair enough, I'll try the new build when it's out to see what you mean.

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                #8
                Eh, I don't agree with most of your points TBH :/

                I love the height change in the latest build. It made some dodges easier, like Pulse to Thigh Pads and Sniper to Helmet on ASDF, dodging off Sniper walkway on Deck (the one by the small slime pit) feels better because you don't bump your head on the ceiling as easily, I fail slope dodges on Erase less, it makes it feel like gravity is higher, etc.

                I haven't noticed rockets become any more powerful than last build.. in fact, they feel more dodgeable now. Even if there's less vertical height, the overall impulse of the dodge remained the same, just more of it was given to the horizontal component - and I think horizontal velocity is more important for dodging. At least I'm pretty sure that's the case, since the splash damage of the rocket is halfway in the ground anyway, so in most cases it's probably faster to get to the edge of the splash radius by going horizonally rather than vertically.

                Of course it would be even better for dodging if both vertical and horizontal impulse were higher, but I think this is only possible if you change the arc of the dodge or gravity (otherwise it would make the dodge even longer.) I think we could consider something like that though, it would probably feel better than the "smooth" dodge we have now anyway. This is kinda what I mean:

                Comment


                  #9
                  I much prefer the flatter dodge than what we had before.
                  That some parts of maps don't quite work anymore with a changed dodge isn't a real issue, it will just require a small tweak to the map.
                  The same goes for the weapons, most of the weapons are still very like UT3, since the movement isn't like UT3 the weapons have to be adjusted anyway. Adjusting the movement to deal with the weapons only makes sense if the weapons are final. This type of flatter dodge worked fine for the first 3 UT games, there is no reason why it can't work again.

                  If you change one thing about a dodge it isn't that simple to keep everything else the same. A dodge has a trajectory that simply follows a parabolic curve.



                  If you increase the angle you increase the air time, but also increase the distance (up to a point at least). If you then increase the velocity to reduce the air time you increase the distance even more. To compensate you could increase the gravity, but you then have to edit all values quite a bit and maps potentially need to be altered a lot more.
                  Another alternative is increasing the game speed, trajectories would stay the same but air time is reduced. The disadvantage of this is that everything is sped up: movement, respawn times, projectile speed, weapon fire rate, etc.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Limiting the distance down with gravity slightly bit sounds not bad to me, especially for wall dodge it feels like gravity has slight room for increase. still I'm only talking the area of maybe ~20% higher arch and then adjusting gravity to bring the distance down roughly to what it is now. UT3's arch is probably like 8 times higher than it is currently, I just think something right in-between the UT3 and UT99 dodge would be the best compromise for this game, now it's just like UT99 and personally I didn't enjoy the UT99 dodge because it was also so ground hugging. I saw so many new usages of the higher arch in UT3 so would be a shame to let all those possibilities go.

                    Besides making close combat more interesting (especially with RL or Flak) it also made it possible to score some nice HS when dodging and shooting a guy above some crates.
                    Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 07-24-2015, 03:34 PM.

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                      #11
                      It's still not quite as flat as UT99 and I doubt UT3 was several times higher. I don't have UT3 installed at the moment, but you can try to record a video or taking a screenshot of someone else at the apex of a dodge in both UT3 and UT4 from a similar distance. I doubt they would look that significantly different in third person. The eye height is lower now than it was in UT3 so in first person you seem to be closer to the ground anyway.

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                        #12
                        OK, I'm probably exaggerating quite a lot by saying it's 8 times higher but it definitely goes higher than UT4. It can also be the result of instead of a curve that has the rise and fall looking the same, the UT3's dodge is more like a longer rise but more abrupt fall, this might contribute to the feeling of being higher perhaps. I liked what it resulted as for very close combat, it feels like in comparison it's a lot more harder to dodge stuff in close combat in UT4 which is still my biggest concern for this new installment, close combat feels so unexciting however mid-long range feels good currently due to the acceleration/friction changes and it's more hard to hit with sniper compared to previously since juking/strafing is more powerful now.
                        Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 07-24-2015, 03:56 PM.

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                          #13
                          Combat in general is a problem, but higher dodging isn't the only solution. It never used to be and close combat was arguably even better in the UT games before UT3. It will require significant changes to the weapons though.

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                            #14
                            i've recently reinstalled unreal 1. it's dodge is shaped like an "u". you really seem to crouch while dodging... which is interesting because from today's perspective you would consider this a slide.
                            i'd however appreciate a slightly higher dodge in ut4.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It could maybe be slightly higher but I don't mind it being a bit flatter and faster like it is now.
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