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    #31
    Originally posted by rejecht View Post
    If we're going to be able to pick character colors/tints, one evolution of this is to allow players to use fixed colors for enemies and teammates, meaning it doesn't matter what team you are on, because enemies are always Color A and teammates are always Color B.
    there is a problem with that. Maps quite often use team colored lighting and decorations. Like blue colored deco and lighting in blue base, and red for red. with fixed team colors imagine you play are in red base, so your base is red colored, but your opponents are all red. that can be confusing. I don't think fix colors are the best solution.

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      #32
      The various color vision deficiencies require some form of color control.

      Materials and symbols could, for example, be programmatically be updated with user selected colors.

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        #33
        Originally posted by peterk View Post
        there is a problem with that. Maps quite often use team colored lighting and decorations. Like blue colored deco and lighting in blue base, and red for red. with fixed team colors imagine you play are in red base, so your base is red colored, but your opponents are all red. that can be confusing. I don't think fix colors are the best solution.
        We not only already brought up that many players like to be able to use fixed colors for teammates and enemies, but also that UE4 should be advanced enough to be able to extend that concept to colors used throughout the map. It started with simple team symbols being applied to flags and monitors, UT3 allowed for complex map-wide color changes at runtime already and I don't see why UT4 wouldn't be able to implement the full range of custom color application features that have been proposed in this thread.
        <elmuerte> you shouldn't do all-nighters, it's a waste of time and effort
        <TNSe> nono
        <TNSe> its always funny to find code a week later you dont even remember writing
        <Pfhoenix> what's worse is when you have a Star Wars moment
        <Pfhoenix> "Luke! I am your code!" "No! Impossible! It can't be!"
        <@Mych|Lockdown> ...and the award for the most creative spelling of "Jailbreak" goes to ... "Gandis Jealbrake Server"

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          #34
          Good point, personally, I liked the possibilities UE3 offered for maps (tint a map in purple if U-damage spawn for example), though it surely wouldn't necessarily allow for easy asymmetric texture design in bases without a lot of hassle. Lighting should be easily changable.
          Then again, this is all a matter of what map one wants to create (I'm a fan of asymmetric maps for example, even if their gameplay isn't necessarily great, they are often very interesting to play).

          I think for the mappers, it would be best to provide materials to them which dynamically change colours based on enemy and own team colour (whether during a match or not, one should be able to tweak the colours in a match as well I think) and are flagged as such materials. Otherwise one will have to restrict most of the design to differently lit bases and flag actors which change symbols and colours and I feel like this would be pretty boring in design.

          I definitely like the idea of changable team colours though (and the idea of being able to just set the complementary colour to your own) and the four colours Wormbo mentioned earlier also sound like a good alternative to current red/blue (and green/gold).
          It would be interesting, if a map could basically preset team colours (up to the mapper to define this). This would sort out these kind of map-design issues. If the map features a lot of red (e.g. a red sky and lava), the mapper would allow colours which are in contrast to red.
          Last edited by Sly.; 07-16-2014, 04:29 PM.
          S l y .

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            #35
            Yea, if the engine allows for changing level colours client-side, then I like the idea of relative colours. "Level colours" include material hue, light hue and post-process hue. As far as I remember, even UE1 allowed changing light hue without needing to rebuild lighting (although in editor, not from mods). Global illumination might be a bit trickier, but then I don't think any accent lights would use global illumination. Team materials have been used at least since UE2. And it looks like post-processing can also be changed quite easily. So I don't think it's that much of a technical issue as it might look like from first glance (though it might need some engine changes, adding a bTeamHue variable for instance).

            A bigger issue is with team names... In two team matches, that's not a problem: "Enemy flag taken", "Your team on offence". Even for spectators, because they could easily fall back to the absolute colour scheme (they aren't playing, so they don't need to make out anything). Problems arise with multiple teams, though, because suddenly you don't know which enemy is which... An enemy flag was taken, should I go to the green or the gold base to assist? And coordinating between team members would be hard, because blue enemy for me could be the red enemy for my teammate...

            Using external names "Ronin dropped the flag", "Necris on offence" would only work if everyone on that team used some distinct style, so Ronin would have to be model-forced to look Ronin, and not a mix of Corrupt, Gen Mo'Kai and Homer Simpson that the players would otherwise want to appear to others.

            Using Double Domination names (Alpha, Bravo) would be likewise confusing, unless each team member was also marked in some way. I could see that working with UT2004-style icons over players' heads, showing "A", "B", "C" etc. to everyone equally. But that might interfere with immersion or give out player locations too easily...

            The other issue I see is from what Sly said, if you dynamically change colour, then you can't remake CTF-EternalCaves or XMP-Alcazar and still make sense; if someone defines the colours to be opposite, then suddenly the blue-looking liquid is what makes you burn and skeletise, while the red-looking liquid you can swim in without issues. Hmm.
            Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
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              #36
              I think we accidentally stepped back to the "blindly change team-like environment colors" again. That is clearly not the intention. Lava should stay red/orange/yellow, water should stay blue/green, etc.

              Eternal Caves has lava on both sides, btw. It just happens to use a blue-ish lighting theme on the blue team's side. The clear team indicators are red and blue logos and the red or blue flames - these can easily be customized to match the flag color.
              Similarly on a map like JB-/CTF-TheDecks, the Deck 17 part should retain its red magma glow and the Deck 16 part its green slime glow lighting. The map also includes team-colored textures and those could be made to match the flag/switch colors.

              Regarding maps like TheDecks or the UT3 version of Facing Worlds, maybe team names and default team colors should be map-specific. On TheDecks the teams could be called "Magma" and "Slime" (or "16" and "17"), as suggested by their part of the map. UT3 Facing Worlds could have the teams "Axon" or "Izinagi" and "Necris".
              (I do realize that may not always be an option for game modes like Onslaught and Assault where teams switch sides after each round.)
              <elmuerte> you shouldn't do all-nighters, it's a waste of time and effort
              <TNSe> nono
              <TNSe> its always funny to find code a week later you dont even remember writing
              <Pfhoenix> what's worse is when you have a Star Wars moment
              <Pfhoenix> "Luke! I am your code!" "No! Impossible! It can't be!"
              <@Mych|Lockdown> ...and the award for the most creative spelling of "Jailbreak" goes to ... "Gandis Jealbrake Server"

              Comment


                #37
                Hmm, now that I look at it again, you're right, the blue team flag on Eternal Cave is in fact over red lava. I always play on red so I forgot that. Still, that's a problem because the red drowns the blue, and you need more effort to recognise that the blue base is blue than that the red base is red. In your example, if red deck is assigned to be green and green deck assigned to be red, then it would again be confusing because lower lighting says one thing and the upper lighting says another thing entirely.

                And it's Izanagi on UT3 Facing Worlds, not Axon. Very clearly so.
                Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
                My website, listing all my Unreal series mods and mutators

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                  #38
                  I think it's a great idea if you could somehow alter the dynamic lighting for either base. Alternatively general enemy based skins would be fantastic.
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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Wormbo View Post
                    It started with simple team symbols being applied to flags and monitors, ....
                    Yes please! I loved this feature, but it was buried in INI files and complex walkthroughs on forums. If it could be made ID.10.T-proof via a easy to use GUI, that would be most excellent.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Veggie_D View Post
                      I don't think I follow that logic …


                      With a bit of foresight and planning, there's no reason dynamic team-colored materials couldn't be applied not just to the environment but also players, vehicles, flags, power nodes/cores … maybe even to weapon projectiles and hitscan beams too when it's appropriate.

                      This approach frees up the overall game's design considerably. Once all the important actors are rendered client-side in the user's preferred team color, there's no longer any need for color-matching the UI. It could be left neutral/gray, it could be team-color-matched if you want, or just leave UI color to the user's discretion. It really doesn't matter anymore.


                      Now, what is lost is the semantics of previous absolute terms involving color, like "red flag" or "blue base", which during communication would no longer have any specific meaning. But in normal two-team games that's usually not how we talk to our teammates anyway — we use relative terms like "our flag", "their flag", "enemy prime", "friendly tank", "enemy leviathan", and so on.

                      And I've proposed taking this further, to refer to a team's identity in absolute terms using a set of common UT team names (e.g. "Ronin", "Thundercrash", etc.), purposely without any regard to color. Each team could also have some associated logo, and this could be applied to environments, alongside the client-controlled team-color, to augment the territory markings.

                      On that note it's worth mentioning as well that having short, distinct absolute team names like this would also help in the case of 3-4+ team games (if those return — let's hope!), for identifying and disambiguating between multiple enemy teams.
                      that i need to +1 I totally agree with you that's how they need to make it! Why is this an important idea? Because all the teams have the same color so the teams blend in the same on a map so no advantage. And I would also like to see that we can change the colors in the menu!

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                        #41
                        Color psychology is a balance issue. What they could do, is changing the teams halfway. In UT4's CTF, there are two rounds, but teams stay. Instead, they could switch sides. The previous red team becoming the new blue team and vise versa. With two rounds, this balances out perfectly, as both teams have played both sides of the map/both colors for the same amount of time (say, 5 minutes/round). The 30 second break and the "You are on the Blue/Red Team" announcement should be enough to make sure you don't get mixed up. The team symbols could also switch with this, for added clarity.

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                          #42
                          At this point I just hope I get to choose a "preferred team" somewhere in the menu. Having played mostly UT99 and UT3, I'm very used to being red. Now suddenly blue is my team's color and it's a bit hard to get used to it after always being red.
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