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Replace hitscan with extremely fast small projectiles

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    Replace hitscan with extremely fast small projectiles

    Just a thought. Add a bit more skill into the use of bullet weapons. I'm fairly certain hitscan was originally just a shortcut to get bullet weapons to work with the limited engine technology and internet speeds back at the turn of the century, and there's no need for that now we can have actual simulated bullets coming out of the guns. There is the aspect that it might be an unnecessary differentiation, but I think it is enough of a difference to change the way these weapons are balanced and used. One of my favorite things about UT has always been that the "shotgun" uses very damaging slow projectiles instead of hitscan bullets. Want to hear what others think about this.

    #2
    I don't think it's that great of an idea, although I'd be open to the idea of the Shock Beam being a non-instant hit (the beam in the original UT did not look instant, which always confused me). It'd also be possible to do damage falloff based on the distance (although I personally don't like this much as an option simply because it might make it difficult to tell how much damage you are dealing when you shoot a target, if you also have to eyeball its distance).
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      #3
      I'm a fan of this idea for mini/stinger as well as sniper/lg.
      The minigun is balanced for long range by making it have random spread. Instead of people living or dying based on a random number generator I'd like to see it shoot fast moving projectiles so it's still has long range but becomes harder to hit the longer that range.
      For sniper I think this helps balance it better than making it random or have a delay after firing. It keeps it from being over powered and increases skill cap.
      As for shock I don't mind the idea as long as it still works well with combos. Alternatively shock damage could be reduced.
      Link I think should remain hitscan. Due to it's limited range I see no problem with this.
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        #4
        this is one of those things that is hard to theorycraft. I'd like to try both and compare, though
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          #5
          I definitely think the shock rifle is fine as is. That weapon takes plenty of skill to use effectively, shock combos are a well balanced and very fun mechanic.

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            #6
            I'm very confused by this reasoning I keep seeing on the forums that implies that hitscan weapons were easy to use. I always felt like it was the opposite. Rockets and flak always felt simple and the hitscan weapons felt like they required the most practice and skill.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Oreo View Post
              I'm very confused by this reasoning I keep seeing on the forums that implies that hitscan weapons were easy to use. I always felt like it was the opposite. Rockets and flak always felt simple and the hitscan weapons felt like they required the most practice and skill.
              Yep, they just need to be balanced better (less damage?/less rate of fire?/less ammo?).

              Hitscan weapons need to be instant but not to the point where they become the only reliable weapons, just the better long range option.

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                #8
                About the Shock Rifle, Make it so you'd always have to slightly predict the shock rifle beam, somone could try it out and see if it works, but ofcourse, there's nothing to balance test yet.
                Also, damage falloff seems to work fine in TF2, but in TF2 you can actually turn on a damage number indicator. You could try putting faloff in. The fast projectiles thing might work. I'm just saying that instead of fully rejecting these ideas we could mess around with it when testing the balance of the weapons

                And about of hitscan is harder or easier..yes, hitscan is harder to use at first. But once you get good with hitscan, the other weapons aren't all that viable. And that's what people want to change.
                Last edited by Dylstew; 05-14-2014, 05:23 AM.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by histortion View Post
                  this is one of those things that is hard to theorycraft. I'd like to try both and compare, though
                  Not really, it's pretty easy to do.

                  It'd be fine for the minigun but not for the LG and the Shock since it would make using them obnoxious given they both lean toward being slow firing. Plus there's also the small problem that both are LASER WEAPONS (an electro-laser in the LG's case but that's still a laser).
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                    #10
                    Personally I'm 100% for projectiles for all bullet-using weapons (in addition to the already projectile weapons of course). I'm thinking of Battlefield 4 for example which if I'm not mistaken uses projectiles for all bullets instead of instant hit checks. If you're in a heli and fire your pistol (the weapon that would the least likely use projectiles) you can clearly see it. And in that game it just feels very good. It's just an example so that you can think of what it would look like.

                    I really prefer that especially also to apply gravity to the bullets (bullet drop over distance). So that with your sniper rifle you'll have to aim up from distance. This is clearly used in every FPS nowadays (or most). So yes I think it should be like this here too. I worked with that in Garry's Mod which didn't prove very good in multiplayer but only because the limits of the engine. Now we can afford it. And if it's not in the game by default then I will work on it for a mutator or something.

                    And by the way bullets don't have to be a mesh and react to physics. It can simply be an fx following a given trajectory with just gravity applied to it.

                    In addition to bullet drop and damage falloff (damage falloff doesn't need projectiles btw) all bullets could have some info about bouncing and penetration too. Which would also slow them down. Think of Sniper Elite V2 for example when your bullet goes through a guy and keeps going to kill another one.
                    Last edited by GregBlast; 05-14-2014, 08:12 AM.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dylstew View Post
                      But once you get good with hitscan, the other weapons aren't all that viable. And that's what people want to change.
                      A good player can and does use all weapons. Projectiles like rockets and flak are much better at close range than shock and lg.

                      Making these weapons projectile would not be a good idea. It would be like playing with lag all the time because you have to guess where to aim.
                      Shock combos would become ridiculously hard to hit because you're trying to work out where two different projectiles would meet.

                      Good aim is 30%+ and you rarely see people getting these stats nowadays (in ut2004 anyway)
                      With projectiles this % would drop considerably.

                      This is "Unreal" tournament with lasers and lightning. They should hit instantly. Guessing where to aim is not going to be fun at all.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Oreo View Post
                        I'm very confused by this reasoning I keep seeing on the forums that implies that hitscan weapons were easy to use. I always felt like it was the opposite. Rockets and flak always felt simple and the hitscan weapons felt like they required the most practice and skill.
                        A lot of it comes from heavy QQ. These days there's a huge aversion to weapons/techniques that don't give their victim a "chance" to "respond." To put this in perspective, ever play with Nerf guns as a kid? "I got you!" "Nuh-uh!" It's pretty much that, with faux eloquence.

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                          #13
                          As much as I would love to see Hitscan replaced by more flying projectile sprites to settle alot of the crying and for visual splendor, I have played enough BF3 and 4 to realize what a drag it creates on bandwidth and netcode efficiency. I have my doubts, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done wonderfully by the right talent.
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                            #14
                            Bear in mind, that there are networking concerns with that sort of thing. A room full of players spraying bullets is going to be ... heavy.

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                              #15
                              This is brilliant for miniguns, but for any other hitscan weapon, superfast projectiles simply translates to "hitscan with lag" (I know they use projectiles in Battlefield, but this game plays so much differently that it won't make sense to add it here).

                              And don't forget the impact projectiles have on high pings - if the projectile minigun spam can't be implemented to handle high latency (due to the large amount of bullets), hitscan is good enough.
                              Last edited by DDRRE; 05-14-2014, 04:01 PM.
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