Enforcer is OP in TDM

[rAge.]

Hello,
I just analysed my last three TDM 4v4 matches, because I was frustrated a bit by enforcer power. I noted every kill of every player in those matches, this is what I've got...

Weapons with the most kills:

DM-Chill (open map):
1. ENFORCER (25% of overall kills)
2. SHOCK (16% of overall kills)
3. SNIPER (15% of overall kills)
4. FLAK (12% of overall kills)

DM-Spacer (semi-open map):
1. LINK (27% of overall kills)
2. ENFORCER (16% of overall kills)
3. FLAK (14% of overall kills)
4. ROCKETS (12% of overall kills)

DM-Decktest (open map):
1. SNIPER (27% of overall kills)
2. SHOCK (19% of overall kills)
3. ROCKETS (17% of overall kills)
4. ENFORCER (14% of overall kills)

Probably It would be pretty similiar if i will check another maps (where another players played). As we can see enforcer is always on top... That means it's not working properly in TDM, shows how less important is positioning right now. Also those statistics prove, that shock / sniper are efficient only on open maps, even on semi-open map like DM-Spacer they were dominated by link / flak and rl.

[jasper285]

Since Enf is the only weapon you've got after respawn, I don't think it's OP. You need to be able to defend yourself from getting spawn raped. Otherwise many new/intermediate players would get discouraged. I think it's well balanced now.
I would agree double enf is OP and the recent dev change (killed player drops enf even if he was using a trans or hammer) will only prove it.

[Smurgl]

It does take 5 hits to kill someone, but I imagine it has a similar proportion of "in hand" time to the kill stats you show.

My guess, though, is that it was being under-used, but now lots of people drop enforcers (not just when you're holding them). Dual wielded enforcers are quite powerful and easier to get hold of now.

[rAge.]

jasper, did you saw those stats? Can you address them?

Otherwise many new/intermediate players would get discouraged.

Matchmaking will solve that. Gameplay can't be balanced for newbies, it's just a sin.

[rAge.]

It does take 5 hits to kill someone, but I imagine it has a similar proportion of "in hand" time to the kill stats you show.

Probably, but you know... Idea of TDM is to hold your enemy without weapons. Positioning. Pretty strong enforcer destroys it, makes positioning far less rewarding. This is shown in those stats.

I played ut3 before nerforcer mutator, and I can say with full liability - enforcer nerf was remedy for broken TDM.

[chicken-]

First spawn protection needs to be taken out to get more accurate results, second rockets/flak/stinger need nerfing so we can actually go anywhere near a gun spawn without being blown to pieces. Then we can analyze enforcer stats

I personally tend to agree with you but I think those 2 things are making it worse, why risk going towards the weapon spawn that you know the guy is going to shoot at when you could just abuse spawn protection and hit him twice before he can react and maybe get 3 more shots in before he kills you?

[Stolid]

Not 4.5 hours before you made this thread you made this comment on a shock rifle thread here https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...l=1#post210052
Emphasis is mine.

Combo radius is almost the same, I tested it around two months ago. It could be strange, but in ut3 is even a litlle bit bigger. I feel in ut4 combo is a bit underpowered in comparison to other weapons (which is not bad, because other weapons are overpowered). It's super easy to counter it. In duel it is one of the best weapons I agree, but in tdm its value drops dramatically. In 4v4 is almost useless, because of close distances between players and lack of ammo.

I'm fine with using statistics to determine if there is an issue with a weapon, but if you want other people to take your own stats seriously then you have to start by taking them seriously yourself. They show that the "almost useless" shock in 4v4 TDM gets second most kills on 2 out of the 3 maps. If there's a problem with the enforcer based on these numbers then to be consistent you can't turn around and say the shock is "almost useless" when it's so high up on the list. The shock would end up even higher if the enforcer is going to be significantly weakened.

[rAge.]

Man did you see which maps I checked? YEAH 2x open map and one semi-open... It's natural that shock/sniper will be top weapons on them. You should better consider why there is no sniper nor shock on top on Spacer. Yes! because they are actually good only on open maps.

[Stolid]

Yes, the maps that are played in TDM. How TDM plays on Outpost23 doesn't matter, because no one plays TDM on it.

You deliberately picked chill because there are a disproportional amount of enforcer kills there which is because the map is big, wide open and has no double weapon spawns. This means people spend a lot of time finding a weapon (often unsuccessfully) while they are in line of sight so they are forced to use it a lot. It not the power of the enforcer that's causing this, it's the map design combined with the fact that frags come easy.
On the other two maps you list they only account for ~15% of the kills, which isn't that far away from the rest of the weapons, only on Chill does it account for 50% more than the second weapon. You could reduce the power of the enforcer but it would be used just as often on that map, it just wouldn't get the kills. The fact people are forced to use it so much is a more fundamental problem.

You can list some tight maps if you want, but I think we both know the enforcer won't do that well on it as the lines of sight won't be there.

[BigFatErik]

I'm not a big TDM guy, but I can see what you mean. What do you propose?

Maybe making the damage 17, so it takes 6 shots to kill someone?

Maybe ONLY for TDM, changing the starting weapon from an enforcer, to a dispersion pistol? The dispersion pistol could maybe act like it did in Unreal 1998 and have a powerup state, or shoot projectiles like the stringer secondary? Quake 2 multiplayer already had a pistol that shot projectiles, and it was hard as hell to kill anybody with it.

Quake 3 had a perfect starting gun - the machine gun. It did low damage per shot, but had a high rate of fire. UT2kX had the asault rifle, but that was a POS because it felt and sounded weak, plus it was tough seeing the bullet impacts so it was difficult even seeing where you were hitting with the recoil. Double assault rifles were a real threat in TDM though.

I dunno, just throwing ideas out there. The most realistic thing at the moment is reducing the damage from 24 to 17

[rAge.]

You deliberately picked chill because there are a disproportional amount of enforcer kills there which is because the map is big, wide open and has no double weapon spawns.

Show me then those maps with double weapon spawns (except of Deck). It's only your imagination, I took three last played maps, thats all!

On the other two maps you list they only account for ~15% of the kills, which isn't that far away from the rest of the weapons

15% is "only" for you? It's pretty much I would say. I need to remind that it's just a start weapon, it should be used to defend yourself and only if you are lucky.

You could reduce the power of the enforcer but it would be used just as often on that map, it just wouldn't get the kills. The fact people are forced to use it so much is a more fundamental problem.

Unfortunatelly, fundamental rule of TDM say "you should force your enemy to play with enforcer". That always been and still should be tactical game, where each player needs to play his own area to hold his enemy without weapons. This is essence of TDM, but it doesn't work if enforcer is too strong.

You can list some tight maps if you want, but I think we both know the enforcer won't do that well on it as the lines of sight won't be there.

Well, enforcer is the most efficient in close/mid so your theory is wrong.

Maybe making the damage 17, so it takes 6 shots to kill someone?

Definitely, that should solve that problem, as it solved the same problem in ut3.

[BigFatErik]

Definitely, that should solve that problem, as it solved the same problem in ut3.

Would you be okay with bringing in the recoil a little bit then?

[rAge.]

Why not try? Probably it will be more balanced anyway

[code187]

The Enforcer is fantastic imo. I always use it when i spawn or run out of ammo and yeah i get frags with it. Frags dont come easy, you need to dance with enemy and usually against flak. One mistake and your dead while you need to get in 5 shots etc.

Only Vets use it, it is hugely underused and by looking at history we all know how an OP weapon gets abused by ALL the moment they work out how easy it is.

Its not OP you just feel that the Enforcer should never kill you, in every UT ive had a easy time getting a frag or 2 with them. Do i use it if i got other weapons hell no.

My only problem is the low ammo you get and cant pick up ammo for it. Once that Runs out your forced to use the hammer, People get kills with the hammer easier then they do with enforcer if their good players. That does not make the hammer OP. Means the player can play.

[rAge.]

I just started to feel like only one who knows, that not amount of usage makes weapon overpowered. Weapon could be your last choice and still be op - just like bio in ut3. The same situation we have here with enforcer. It's op as start weapon!
Ammunition is a problem I agree, this could be increased in exchange for lower damage