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Enforcer is OP in TDM

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    #16
    Enforcer is just fine, and 5 shots to kill is perfectly reasonable (that's already a nerf compared to UT values.) It'd be far too weak at 6 shots to kill.

    Originally posted by rAge. View Post
    The same situation we have here with enforcer. It's op as start weapon!
    No, it really isn't.

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      #17
      I definitely think Enforcer is OP, should just be replaced with Dispersion Pistol. But if not, at least lower the damage and fire rate. It's ridiculous how a fresh spawn can kill someone with belt in Duel with just Enforcer.

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        #18
        Originally posted by gzv View Post
        Enforcer is just fine, and 5 shots to kill is perfectly reasonable (that's already a nerf compared to UT values.) It'd be far too weak at 6 shots to kill.



        No, it really isn't.
        Well, "no it's not" is not an argument. Nerf? It's not even nerfed in comparison to ut99 (you know, we already have 2015, it's A WAY easier to hit with hitscans than in 1999, net connections etc.) You need to know, ut3 competitive matches were played with nerforcer - enf 14 dmg and slower RoF.
        Last edited by rAge.; 11-26-2015, 07:57 PM.

        Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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          #19
          Originally posted by rAge. View Post
          Show me then those maps with double weapon spawns (except of Deck). It's only your imagination, I took three last played maps, thats all!
          Why can't I count deck? It's a good example, it has most double weapons and enforcer does worst of the 3 maps you listed. Guess which weapon is the one with by far the most kills (70% more than enforcer) on Spacer? Link gun, the only weapon that's on the map twice.

          Amount of weapons from most to least:
          Deck
          Spacer
          Chill
          Enforcer kill percentage from least to most:
          Deck
          Spacer
          Chill

          Entirely expected pattern.

          15% is "only" for you? It's pretty much I would say. I need to remind that it's just a start weapon, it should be used to defend yourself and only if you are lucky.
          Well, what percentage is reasonable then? At 15% it would only account for 3-5 kills for most people per map and not all of those kills would be on people with 100+ hp.

          Unfortunatelly, fundamental rule of TDM say "you should force your enemy to play with enforcer". That always been and still should be tactical game, where each player needs to play his own area to hold his enemy without weapons. This is essence of TDM, but it doesn't work if enforcer is too strong.
          I don't disagree, but how do you ever take over an area and get weapons and armor when the starting weapon is weak? There are only 7 weapons on Chill, so the average player only has to time one armor and not even 2 weapons. That's not hard to control at all and with a weak enforcer it makes games really boring. Now I'd much prefer maps to be harder to control plus a weaker enforcer (it's OP just like all other weapons are) than the current situation, but easy to control maps plus a weak enforcer is just as bad if not worse than the current situation.

          Well, enforcer is the most efficient in close/mid so your theory is wrong.
          Only rocket and flak efficiency increases even more as you get close range. The problem is there isn't really any tight TDM map.
          On top of that it's 100% accurate so you can use it long range just fine as long as you lower your rate of fire slightly.

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            #20
            Originally posted by rAge. View Post
            Well, "no it's not" is not an argument. Nerf? It's not even nerfed in comparison to ut99 (you know, we already have 2015, it's A WAY easier to hit with hitscans than in 1999, net connections etc.) You need to know, ut3 competitive matches were played with nerforcer - enf 14 dmg and slower RoF.
            The argument was already above, and yes it is nerfed in comparison to UT99 where enforcers do 25 damage per shot; even if ROF is a little slower that's still only 4 shots to kill.

            Your argument that it's way easier to land hitscan shots now-days is pretty ridiculous/irrelevant considering people have been playing UT99 for over a decade (and its weapon balance was fine both offline/LAN.)

            Finally UT3 enforcers were just super weak and practically useless, so they're not a good point of reference. I think most people would agree we shouldn't be remaking UT3 here.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Stolid View Post
              Well, what percentage is reasonable then? At 15% it would only account for 3-5 kills for most people per map and not all of those kills would be on people with 100+ hp.
              In this case it was:
              48 enforcer kills on DM-Chill
              28 enforcer kills on DM-Spacer
              29 enforcer kills on DM-Decktest
              It's pretty much imo. 105 enforcer kills on those maps together. It's the best result, with advantage of 10 frags.


              Originally posted by Stolid View Post
              I don't disagree, but how do you ever take over an area and get weapons and armor when the starting weapon is weak? There are only 7 weapons on Chill, so the average player only has to time one armor and not even 2 weapons. That's not hard to control at all and with a weak enforcer it makes games really boring. Now I'd much prefer maps to be harder to control plus a weaker enforcer (it's OP just like all other weapons are) than the current situation, but easy to control maps plus a weak enforcer is just as bad if not worse than the current situation.
              In tdm average amount of life is rather low, there will be still good chances for frag with 17 dmg enforcers. Anyway with similiar skill level teams total map-lock is almost impossible.

              Originally posted by gzv View Post
              Finally UT3 enforcers were just super weak and practically useless, so they're not a good point of reference. I think most people would agree we shouldn't be remaking UT3 here.
              UT3 default enforcers were pretty powerfull, that's why competitive community decided to replace them with nerforcers.
              Last edited by rAge.; 11-26-2015, 08:37 PM.

              Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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                #22
                Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                In this case it was:
                48 enforcer kills on DM-Chill
                28 enforcer kills on DM-Spacer
                29 enforcer kills on DM-Decktest
                It's pretty much imo. 105 enforcer kills on those maps together. It's the best result, with advantage of 10 frags.
                Apart from Chill for which I've already outlined the issues that's only 3.5 enforcer kills per player. 170 of the 200 frags were not done by an enforcer on those maps so it doesn't seem that extreme.

                In tdm average amount of life is rather low, there will be still good chances for frag with 17 dmg enforcers. Anyway with similiar skill level teams total map-lock is almost impossible.
                Good chances meaning less than the 3 people get now? I don't see how 2 frags or less per 20 minutes is having good chances.

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                  #23
                  But you know, this is still more than average amount of kills (200/8 weapons = 25). It only looks like just 3,5 per player. For example - sniper dominated Decktest with 54 total frags, but it could looks not so impressive when we show it as 6,5 kills per player.

                  Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                    Hello,
                    I just analysed my last three TDM 4v4 matches, because I was frustrated a bit by enforcer power. I noted every kill of every player in those matches, this is what I've got...

                    Weapons with the most kills:

                    DM-Chill (open map):
                    1. ENFORCER (25% of overall kills)
                    2. SHOCK (16% of overall kills)
                    3. SNIPER (15% of overall kills)
                    4. FLAK (12% of overall kills)

                    DM-Spacer (semi-open map):
                    1. LINK (27% of overall kills)
                    2. ENFORCER (16% of overall kills)
                    3. FLAK (14% of overall kills)
                    4. ROCKETS (12% of overall kills)

                    DM-Decktest (open map):
                    1. SNIPER (27% of overall kills)
                    2. SHOCK (19% of overall kills)
                    3. ROCKETS (17% of overall kills)
                    4. ENFORCER (14% of overall kills)
                    Questionable sample size but given you had to manually do this not terrible.

                    Firstly looking at the selected maps we can easily assume that enforcer would get more use on chill than the other two maps, simply because it has less weapon spawns compared to the other two. Chill has one of each, spacer has an additional link (anything else?) and deck has.. heaps. The thing that stands out the most from those three sets of stats is the enforcer being in the top 4 on deck, not because it is OP but compared to the number of weapons available on deck vs the other maps. The spacer numbers could be used to enforce the notion that "pulse is overpowered".

                    Kills are not a great metric to look at how "OP" a weapon is, especially in a scenario where weapons are limited. How often are players swapping away from other weapons in these games to do large amounts of damage using the enforcer? For example on deck a large % of the kills are with sniper - if players were "smarter" should this be lower and should they be finishing with the enforcer or is this already occuring? What are player death holding enforcers like? This metric is about as useful as what you have provided but should paint the opposite picture - most player deaths should occur with the enforcer equipped, which means it is underpowered? This metric should be doubly true on chill compared to deck!

                    Some mash up of total kills vs enforcer kills vs number of weapons on a map would paint a better picture. Chuck player deaths in as well in some manner while you are at it!

                    Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                    Probably It would be pretty similiar if i will check another maps (where another players played). As we can see enforcer is always on top... That means it's not working properly in TDM, shows how less important is positioning right now. Also those statistics prove, that shock / sniper are efficient only on open maps, even on semi-open map like DM-Spacer they were dominated by link / flak and rl.
                    In other threads you have commented on how the enforcer is annoying in tdm because players quite often have low health, either from previous fights or specifically due to people pecking away health with the enforcer.

                    Could it be time to change the health/armor spawn times and look at the number of armor pickups in TDM? ut99 had 18 second health packs and other afps have 20 second armors. Lowering health packs to 20seconds reduces the window fresh spawns have to capitalise on injured opponents by ~30%. Simply having more armor makes the enforcer weaker while not effecting the current weapons as much since they are fairly over tweaked.

                    If players are less squishy the enforcer will not be as viable.

                    Don't take this the wrong way, I am not a fan of the enforcer (so boring, long range, zzz) and would welcome a change to the spawn weapon but the way you have gone about showing this is...
                    Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by BigFatErik View Post
                      Quake 3 had a perfect starting gun - the machine gun. It did low damage per shot, but had a high rate of fire.
                      Pls no. Worst tdm starting weapon in history that spawned a term (cess) for how badly it made q3 tdm play.
                      Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by joellll View Post
                        Kills are not a great metric to look at how "OP" a weapon is, especially in a scenario where weapons are limited. How often are players swapping away from other weapons in these games to do large amounts of damage using the enforcer? For example on deck a large % of the kills are with sniper - if players were "smarter" should this be lower and should they be finishing with the enforcer or is this already occuring?
                        You have right and I knew it, but... we can't check damage given / received.

                        Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                          But you know, this is still more than average amount of kills (200/8 weapons = 25). It only looks like just 3,5 per player. For example - sniper dominated Decktest with 54 total frags, but it could looks not so impressive when we show it as 6,5 kills per player.
                          More than average, but how much of the playtime do players spend holding the enforcer seeing as they spawn with it? Way more than 1/8th of the time, probably more than 1/4th as well, some players will come close to have no other weapon as much as half the time. So people play with enforcer 2-4 times more than the average weapon, but only get 1.2 times the kills of the average weapon. If the weapon was truly as effective as the average weapon it would get at least twice the amount of kills that it does now, possibly up to three times as many.
                          If people don't get any kills with bio, which isn't unreasonable, the average (200/7 = 28.6) becomes as much as the amount of kills the enforcer got on Spacer and Deck anyway.

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                            #28
                            I noticed last night while playing a few games that dual enforcers' ROF does feel a little bit too high ... that's about the only attribute of the weapon that I think could use a nerf.

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                              #29
                              I figured out that hitting someone with a Shock Rifle then switching to Enforcer for the kill is pretty effective. Though I'm a Halo vet so I feel right at home with the Enforcer while every other weapon feels foreign. I agree with gzv, though. Dual Enforcers felt really strong, but I think the only way to get an extra is by a map spawn?

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                                #30
                                The only thing that'll make rage happy is if shock combos do 300+ damage to everything in LoS, secondary and primary both 1 shot fresh spawns and everything else hits like a feather duster.

                                The only thing I can't figure out is if he actually believes his own **** or if he just thinks everyone else is too stupid to see through it.
                                Last edited by MoxNix; 12-08-2015, 02:40 PM.

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