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Enforcer is OP in TDM

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    #46
    Well it shouldn't hurt to experiment with other starting weapons. Maybe it's cool to bring back that good old dispersion pistol, and give it the ability to considerably (but not too overpowered) push people away? Could be a neat way to keep folks chasing you at a distance, making the starting weapon more defensive. Could even consider putting this on the piston alt fire, then perhaps slightly reducing enforcer damage.

    I enjoy the enforcer though, it's also doubles for a great finishing weapon when somebody is low on HP.
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      #47
      I would prefer a weak minigun instead of the current weak sniper:
      - requiring tracking skill
      - less efficient in long distance.

      Ut2004 version was perfect IMO (without the grenades)
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        #48
        The dillema with enforcer is that it needs to be powerful enough that new players can get a few kills with it when they can't find another weapon. However, with better players, enforcer becomes a big problem as it's way too easy to take an opponent down.

        The main thing I hate about an OP enforcer is it encourages a player to run straight to where they just died confident they will be able to finish their opponent off even if they don't know for sure how much armor/hp they have.

        Also, by the later years of UT1 enforcer was a problem too. I think early on it was fine because of poorer connections. After that, mini/pulse were so strong that you would have to be stupid to attack your opponent. Once tiw was introduced, enforcer became a problem for the reason I gave about rushing to where you just died.
        Last edited by w)v; 12-22-2015, 06:01 AM.

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          #49
          Originally posted by w)v View Post
          The main thing I hate about an OP enforcer is it encourages a player to run straight to where they just died confident they will be able to finish their opponent off even if they don't know for sure how much armor/hp they have.
          THIS! It changed from defensive to offensive weapon. You won your position in tdm? Don't worry, in the next 10 seconds you will fight again with the same player, because he will back to finish you.
          Seriously, I played a lot of 4v4 on this build, and situations like that are common. Enforcer is not defensive weapon anymore. Aggression with it is effective now.
          The main rule of TDM is not working properly because of current OP enforcer. "You should keep your enemy away from weapons". Currently even without weapons your enemy can kill you with enforcer easily and takes your area.

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            #50
            That's right, that's a very frustrating situation to be rushed by the one you just killed. I suppose that the objective was to make the enforcer primary fire usefull. But that's OP at the moment.

            Secondly, you could just say "well OK, he just killed me with enforcer after 3 shots in a row... His good aim is rewarded". But it's not true as the primary fire is really random.

            IMO random has nothing to do with UT.
            - Make the primary fire accurate and reduce the damage
            - or change the primary fire into a tiny minigun (ut2004 or quake like)
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              #51
              Is there a place where I can read more on that "main rule of tdm"?
              (I didn't know there were any more rules than "kill the opponents more than they kill you"-rule.)
              If those main rules are being violated then it absolutely would make sense changing the weaps so that the rules are not broken anymore. On the other hand, if basically the only rule is to be the team with most frags in the end.... then I can't really see the problem. It's not like the servers are full of people ignoring the other weaps, just running around with enforcers because of it's OP'ness.

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                #52
                Originally posted by Gurkburken View Post
                Is there a place where I can read more on that "main rule of tdm"?
                (I didn't know there were any more rules than "kill the opponents more than they kill you"-rule.)
                If those main rules are being violated then it absolutely would make sense changing the weaps so that the rules are not broken anymore. On the other hand, if basically the only rule is to be the team with most frags in the end.... then I can't really see the problem. It's not like the servers are full of people ignoring the other weaps, just running around with enforcers because of it's OP'ness.
                Without wanting to sound condescending, I take it you never played ut3 at a competitive level to appreciate how game breaking an OP enforcer can be?

                The UT4 enforcer isn't quite at that level but an OP spawn weapon is something that needs to be avoided.
                Last edited by w)v; 01-11-2016, 05:32 AM.

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                  #53
                  In the current build, enforcer has become even more powerful. :/
                  Last edited by rAge.; 02-09-2016, 04:37 AM.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                    In the current build, enforcer has become even more powerful. :/
                    Due to increased player size or something else ?
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                      #55
                      Yes, I think this is the cause. Anyway I like the scale, even with bigger hitboxes. Prefer to change weapons instead of changing scale to previous one. Enforcer was op previously anyway

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                        #56
                        80% of the weapons are totally out of place and epic doesnt see it.

                        the scaling fits pretty well, but with those instant-kill weaps its just boring as hell.

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                          #57
                          OK let's summarize my thoughts about enforcer:



                          Enforcer is a clearly defensive weapon, which should be used to tries to scare off the enemy (without bigger chances to kill him if he is 100hp or above). As a start weapon it shouldn't be used to aggressive play. Already enf has the biggest DPS from hitscan weapons, insanely high as start weapon. It caused, that enforcer is efficient in aggressive play, and attacks on fresh spawned guys gives too much risk for attackers. Theoretically it has dispersion, but in fact, first 2-3 shots are accurate enough even on long distance, in close it doesn't matter. Currently it's far easier to hit than xx years ago (pings, connections quality), that's why I don't understand why enforcer stayed almost as strong as in ut99 (yes, in these years enforcer in ut99 is problem too). We had already op enforcer in ut3 (the same level imo), community helped themselves by doing mutator "nerforcer" which nerfed rof and damage to 14. Every tourney was played with this mutator in rules - that clearly shows opinion of ut3 community.

                          My proposition:
                          • 14 damage, the same RoF (DPS = 42)
                          • every shot is accurate
                          • more ammo
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                            #58
                            It's a difficult one... when I'm playing these DM servers and I respawn with the enforcer, hit 4 times and then die I find it a bit frustrating - so close! It's a regular occurrence and I do feel like I usually get 3 hits in, but most kills are from when a player is already damaged.

                            How do you really balance it... the enforcer shouldn't be so weak that you choose to use the impact hammer. What you're suggesting is 8 shots to kill someone with starting health and that's if you don't miss.

                            I think that's a bit too many. I think 5 shots is just right, but if there was a tweak I would reduce the distance of the shots. If you could only fire at a relatively close range it would still allow a player to fight back against any weapon with great shooting, but not result is dying from enforcers half way across the map.

                            I do find that I will sometimes switch from rockets or flak to enforcer when someone is at a distance and I think the opponent is low on health don't have any other instant hit shot.
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                              #59
                              First of all, enforcer is NOT the weapon intended to get kills. It's weapon to DEFEND yourself if you are lucky Exaggerated a bit, but this is how it should works in general.

                              I have no idea how it works in DM, but in TDM / duel it's just frustratingly too strong. Theoretically in DM and CTF shouldn't be used a lot, because those modes are played with weaponstay on. That means there will be a lot less frustrating situations caused by enforcer.
                              You wrote that 5 shots is just right, in my opinion its definitelly not. As I said 14dmg enforcer was tested in ut3 by few years. Anyway, your 5 enforcer shots = 3x shock primary and 2x sniper. Both have a way longer time to shot.

                              Time to kill 100hp guy (less = better):

                              Enforcer: 1,3
                              Sniper: 1,3
                              Shock: 1,4

                              Time to kill 85hp guy (less = better):

                              Enforcer: 1s
                              Sniper 1,3
                              Shock: 1,4

                              Time to kill 250hp guy (less = better):

                              Enforcer: 3,6
                              Sniper: 3,9
                              Shock: 4,2

                              1,3 second to kill 100hp guy by start weapon!? It's ridiculous. It's probably faster than 2 shots from rl / flak. You missed one shot? Add 1,3s for sniper / 0,7 for shock / 0,333 for enforcer. There are less consequences for missed shot if you are using enforcer. Anyway it's not really hard to hit 4-5 shots in a row with full RoF.
                              Last edited by rAge.; 02-14-2016, 07:07 AM.

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                                #60
                                good post rage. also the better players are more dmg is dealt by enforcer overall.

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