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Essence of current weapon balance.

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  • #16
    Flak is broken, etcetc. Maybe it will slightly change by .02% next build?

    Originally posted by rAge. View Post

    4. You need to work much more on your counting skills, I had belt which is 100% absorb (270 effective hp). He had armor + pads and 2 vials during the fight (wait, during? he takes it when I was almost died - it doesn't matter!) Anyway it's 100+100+10+50=260 NON effective hp (armors = 70% absorb?).
    At the start of the video how much damage can both players take before dying.
    Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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    • #17
      While I agree the Flak is clearly too lethal at the moment, this video does such a poor job of showing it you are arguably closer to making a case against the Flak being OP than for it.

      That combo was not 1m away, if you slow the video down you can clearly see it's at least a player height away so closer to 2m. 2m is about 40% of the combo range. 200 damage combo - 40% damage = 120 damage (The combo actually did 120 damage, he picked up a vial before the combo hit, so 115+5). UT3 combo would have done 129 damage.
      You tried to finish an 85 hp opponent with link while he had flak in close range, you would've lost that in any UT game. Even if he did have 50 hp you made the wrong choice seeing as you could only do 20 damage with the link.
      You could only have won that if the combo would have done 180 damage, at 60% means that a point blank combo would need to do 300 damage.
      Nothing to see there.

      Then the Flak. You conveniently sum up the damage from the first 2 shots (both at around 1 dodge distance away) as doing 180 damage.
      Why not just list the damages per shot?
      First shot 64 damage
      Second shot 115 damage
      Third shot 94 damage

      The Flak can do that amount of damage at those distances in any UT game, even 2k4. Again nothing special to see.

      The real problem with the Flak is how easy that damage comes. That means you can't really show that in one frag.
      What you'd have to do is show every situation where the same two players engage in combat with either of them using the Flak.
      Stitch the first 30+ of those clips together (not cherry picked, literally every situation like that despite the outcome) and you've got some statistical power to show how lethal it is and in what situations.
      It's not that it can do a lot of damage, it's that it does a lot of damage very often.

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      • #18
        So you got hit 3 times knowing he had a flak?
        IMO the problem with the flak its not the damage, instead how easy it is to get close and spam it since you have little to no choice to counter it other than running away.

        I wonder though, how unbalanced would it be if the shock cores could block the flak shards?
        Last edited by Adohk; 12-05-2015, 06:33 PM.

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        • #19
          just tighten the spread (which should be smth like in 2k4) and mby reduce the max. dmg to 140dmg.

          hitting flak is just too easy, anyone could do a decent amount of dmg. (beginners ie.)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Stolid View Post
            The real problem with the Flak is how easy that damage comes. That means you can't really show that in one frag.
            What you'd have to do is show every situation where the same two players engage in combat with either of them using the Flak.
            Stitch the first 30+ of those clips together (not cherry picked, literally every situation like that despite the outcome) and you've got some statistical power to show how lethal it is and in what situations.
            It's not that it can do a lot of damage, it's that it does a lot of damage very often.
            Yep.

            While destacking the in control player is a popular example of how the flak is broken, the more common (and potentially worse imo) is how the flak behaves with naked players. In a game where players have meaningful armor around three times a minute (one belt and two jackets) the player with nothing can seemingly die to flak primary shot in their general direction.

            Those who are aware that the flak has damage fall off over distance might be interested to learn that it does not kick in or change the number of shards required to kill a 100 health player till around 1500units. A little less than the distance across the deck acid pit. Basically this means that while there is a function for damage fall off over distance it is almost completely irrelevant, never comes into effect in a useful way and the only thing that effects how much damage flak primary (besides wall hits) can do to a player at a meaningful range is spread.
            Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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            • #21
              If it's not the flak cannon it'll be another weapon that makes people go "Seriously, this opponent got one or two hits in and I'm dead just like that??". It might be worth considering decreasing damage across the board. In duel the current average damage is fine since it's common to have an armor stack and there's only one opponent to worry about, but perhaps most game modes would play better if you could survive a hit longer than currently.

              To get theoretical about it which is more skill based, short or long Time To Kill?
              In a tactical shorter short TTK favors the player with more experience of which paths opponents usually take and quicker aim, while long TTK leads to both opponents standing there shooting at each other until one of them runs out of health.
              In an arena shooter short TTK favors the player who gets one or two good hits in which is usually skill but could be luck, while long TTK favors the player who reacts and adapts the best throughout the fight which is definitely skill.

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              • #22
                Stolid, I lost that, because flak made crazy amount of damage in mid distance. It wasn't close, and in ut3 (which I played the most) it will be safe distance as far as he will hit me with perfect shot (and it wasn't super often as it is now).
                You have right, the most important problem with flak is its easiness, it's super easy to deal huge amount of damage. Unfortunately, its power on distances is one of the factors why it's so easy to deal big amount of damage:

                First shot, shouldn't take more than 30hp


                Another example from my other posts:
                Last edited by rAge.; 12-05-2015, 07:17 PM.
                http://forum.unreal.pl/image.php?u=2...ine=1223384883
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by joellll View Post
                  Those who are aware that the flak has damage fall off over distance might be interested to learn that it does not kick in or change the number of shards required to kill a 100 health player till around 1500units. A little less than the distance across the deck acid pit. Basically this means that while there is a function for damage fall off over distance it is almost completely irrelevant, never comes into effect in a useful way and the only thing that effects how much damage flak primary (besides wall hits) can do to a player at a meaningful range is spread.
                  Well, this is news to me. No wonder I get killed in close-medium range in one shot with 100hp. That really is the annoying part about Flak.

                  Rockets are still much more OP currently though, it's basically "if you can get in close range, you win". The knockback makes it possible to kill someone with belt while taking no damage yourself, on Erase rockets are easily the best comeback weapon, much better than sniper even. Someone who is spamming rockets while retreating is also basically impossible to catch up to.
                  Last edited by Barktooth; 12-05-2015, 07:49 PM.

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                  • #24
                    I agree the flak does too much damage however that was a clearing the corner combo that the player just happened to be there. Miss timed because you had no idea he was there till too late otherwise I'd of comboed a tiny bit later. The you were close to the walls so even if most shards would of missed the rebounds got you in this case. Also a narrow corridor that flak is the landlord in and it was time to pay the rent. Also I'd of used link primary while backing away if that's the weapon I'd of chose not the beam as it makes me be closer to a close range weapon.
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                    • #25
                      The real problem with Flak isn't the number of shards, the damage per shard or the spread, it's the hit collision radius on the shards... The same thing that makes air rockets so easy to hit practically guarantees multiple shards hit too.

                      Remove the radius and it won't be so easy to get big damage at range, do the same for rockets too and then see if further balancing is required.

                      Really that's about the only change that makes much sense. Anything else either actually buffs Flak or completely gimps it. Reduce the damage, range or number of shards too much and flak is basically useless. Increase the spread and it not only becomes even easier to hit with at short range but it'll be an AoE spam gun at longer ranges too (no doubt we'd all love that! ). Reduce the spread and yeah it'll be a little bit harder to hit with at short range but it'll be more accurate and do more damage at longer ranges too.

                      That 1500 uu joellll mentions is across the width of the acid pit on Deck, not the length. The actual acid is about 1600 uu across not counting the walkway around it. Counting the walkways it's 2250 uu across.
                      Last edited by MoxNix; 12-05-2015, 08:42 PM.

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                      • #26
                        I agree, there are multiple factors of current situation. It's hard to say what is the real cause, but one thing is certain - flak needs to be nerfed, and not like until now (I mean 0,5% nerf per build).
                        http://forum.unreal.pl/image.php?u=2...ine=1223384883
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                          Stolid, I lost that, because flak made crazy amount of damage in mid distance. It wasn't close, and in ut3 (which I played the most) it will be safe distance as far as he will hit me with perfect shot (and it wasn't super often as it is now).
                          You have right, the most important problem with flak is its easiness, it's super easy to deal huge amount of damage. Unfortunately, its power on distances is one of the factors why it's so easy to deal big amount of damage:

                          First shot, shouldn't take more than 30hp
                          That screenshot doesn't truly represent what happened either. You kept walking in the direction of the shock core (despite him having flak and coming at you).
                          When the shot actually hits you are about to walk into the orange area already, meters further than where you are in your screenshot.


                          "Crazy amount of damage" is subjective anyway. It only did 64 damage which is like 1/3rd of the max damage, half your combo's damage and less than a sniper shot too.
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                          • #28
                            Does this guy ever stop crying? He would short his keyboard in 30 seconds playing our UT3 server. Your combo clearly missed as you can see in the screen shot above. The guy wasn't dead center he was back & left. Your combo pushed him back against the wall & he finished you while you were switching weapons. Stupid move on your part. Get over it. If you can't handle losing, maybe you should play something less painful.
                            Attached Files
                            General Poor Behavior II
                            http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/...psi5debu8k.jpg

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                            • #29
                              I'm confused with the Flak doing so much damage at 1-2 dodge distance why people still try to play the game inside 1-2 dodge distance in every video I watch. When are you guys going to change your strategy from 2k4-style get in close to be more effective gameplay? Even in UT, people kept some range, especially in case they had the flak or the ripper out.
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                              • #30
                                Because it's easier to cry & complain till all the weapons they hate get nerf'd to uselessness.
                                General Poor Behavior II
                                http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/...psi5debu8k.jpg

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