Melee Weapons in the Unreal Universe

[MonsOlympus]

Okay so Ive been thinking about this one for a long while since way back before the weapons models even had concept art, I thought what if we had more melee weapons so the Impact Hammer didnt feel so lonely.

What I like about Melee is what they offer in terms of variety, especially when it comes to up close personal and visceral combat. Games like Shadow Warrior and Dying Light in particular excelled in bringing a FP Melee weapon experience to the player and I think it could really open up new doors for UT without bringing too much of UC over.

Now melee weapons can be the obvious, Swords, Shields, Axes but they really need an Unreal spin on them to really expand on the universe rather than just tacking on existing real world weapons. Im going to outline some of the Unreal ones here, some common weapons that could be considered. I wonder if we could perhaps try to come up with some out of the box functionality for weapons that dont even exist, I posted this in the design forum because I figure we can make the forms follow the design to keep things fast and loose.

Impact Hammer (UT etc)
The closest thing to a mainstay when it comes to Melee weapons in UT, its had variations functionality changes with some of those being the ability to block projectiles and remove powerups.

Shield Gun (UT2kX)
UCs variant on an Impact Hammer, it allowed for some interesting trick jump combos in a similar fashion to TF2s demoman.


Chainsaw (UT)
Chainsaw

Shock Lance (U2)


Razik Blades (U, U2, UC2)


Liandri Hammers (UC2)


Melee Attacks
There could be a Kick or Punch as a quick access melee attack such as other FPS games have with knives or basic blocks/counters against those attacks.

Sword (UC2)
As mentioned on IRC this weapon could be a good addition, what would really set it apart in the Unreal Universe, what kind of spin would make it fit well?
sci-fi-sword
Paladin

Staff (UC2)
Perhaps some form of Nali weapon or a more mystical weapon than scifi as there does need to be some variety but Im really just trying to get the ball rolling for others suggestions.

http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Melee_weapons

In the early days I was considering that weapons could have both a melee function and a normal weapon attack, like a Ripper could double as a chainsaw for instance and the Shock rifle could have a bayonet type attachment. I liked this idea but Im not sure its viable as it makes every weapon good at closer ranges without a real punishment for it where having seperate melee weapons means there can be a unique switch time for a melee which helps to make it balanced.

My main inspiration for posting this here now instead of earlier was when I saw this:

Doom on Youtube

I couldnt help but notice how up close and personal it was and I felt that perhaps this is what this UT needs more of, something that Bulletstorm and Gears both did rather well and not alot of FP games outside of more scripted games approach. I would love to see this kind of personal touch to finishers and that kind of thing in UT, especially in regards to melee as it could give you that real satisfaction of getting revenge on that hard to kill player you been chasing all match. Battlefield has the DogTags you can snatch and I rekon UT could bring it

I would really like to hear peoples thoughts on adding more melee weapons to UT on a whole and trying to build a nice small Unreal weapon rack that can appeal to a wider variety of players whilst still pleasing the fans of UT

[richardboegli]

While I do like the idea of swords, what I am not sure is how would the impact jump be replaced?

Maybe a force push, now that the character is using a sword :P

[Wail]

While I do like the idea of swords, what I am not sure is how would the impact jump be replaced?

Maybe a force push, now that the character is using a sword :P

Why would it need to be replaced? Weapons can be different.

[Frostbite83]

no melee Weapons in UT

[HexxuSz0r]

whoa chris is making sense

[MonsOlympus]

Why would it need to be replaced? Weapons can be different.

Yup thats exactly it Im not talking about Jedi powers or replacing the Impact Hammer Im talking about expanding Melee weapons in UT as a whole.

no melee Weapons in UT

I appreciate the input but this is no where near a proposal to Epic to add them in UT, this is basically a discussion about a design idea and if you would like to tell me why you think that is that would be great. I know there can be a language barrier so perhaps someone could interpret for you


I honestly cant see alot bad with the idea, the combat is already quite diverse and there are plenty of close up firemodes with a majority being more close range than long, even the sniper doesnt have a huge range on it because of the sightlines on most of the core maps. I get that people might not want this but its not a democracy, Im not asking who wants Melee or not, its a design thread to discuss ideas about possible melee weapons in the universe at large.

Whether people like it or not Melee has been part of Unreal and UT since the very beginning, Im not talking about some elaborate fencing simulator here, I want to make Melee Unreal not the other way around

[Dementiurge]

The biggest problem with melee weapons in games like these are that what you see doesn't match what you get. You have to attack the air in front of or behind your opponent to make a hit, and likewise your opponent will appear to be able to attack you from further away or while they are facing the wrong direction. Ultimately it's a problem with ping and freedom of movement you don't really experience at range, and I don't know if compromising freedom of movement is how you'll want to solve anything in a UT game.

There's a reason the impact hammer and shield gun activate on their own, and it's an ugly problem.

[MonsOlympus]

Thats a fair call but TF2 works very well for a MP game with Melee, its not perfect sure but it doesnt have alot of netcode issues, it is ping dependent so I will give you that when you feel like you were outside of their range and got hit it doesnt feel right but at the same time theres nothing about that situation that wont already exist with the same ping and instahit weapons.

The good thing about UT in comparison to something like TF2 is that there are guns that are really effective up close so going at someone with a Melee will require superior movement and/or position. UT has alot of different movement options so it opens doors that games like TF2 dont really offer and we wouldnt have to resort to something like the Demomans charge with the Shield. Its could be an option for a Melee mode which could make sprint more situational and take it away from the core movement, just spitballing here.

I dont disagree with you and I think testing weapons that dont have auto-attacks could be beneficial and raise the skill bar for using those weapons more effectively. It would allow players with superior movement a chance against players with better aim for instance, being able to come up and inflict a huge amount of damage point blank to a scoped sniper more quietly than with a hammer hit would certainly be a good thing. Snipers dont really have any counter except other snipers in UT which in turn kinda makes for this cat n mouse that TF2 avoids with a spy class, obviously UT doesnt need a player who can go invisible and back stab but it could have the Unreal alternative, which would be more like a Green Beret with a Bowie Knife.

I have spoken in the past about locational damage even if its just for the sake of hit detection, when using the skeleton we can get much more accurate location so there are ways to make sure a hit is more of a proper hit compared to just checking this big imaginary radius infront of the player. Even in regards to weapon fire this would IMO be better than the one big hitbox fits all solution, is it more complex? Sure it is but I think it would be worth trialing as games need to move forward and I feel as though the old sliding fridge is something that can be left in the past. I know not everyone might agree with that but this year Epic wants to hit Beta, my goal on the other hand is to try and show Epic that there is so much more they can do, that what might be considered crazy by 1998 standards is quite feasible almost 2 decades later.

I just know ping is around to stay so we'll just have to put up with it, sure we can try to make peoples gaming experience more comfortable but those issues are going to be there irrespective of what weapon youre using. I dont think we should sacrifice gameplay because of it, I think we should look for solutions in games and genres outside of FPS games, like fighting games where ping still matters, where hit detection needs to be just as fast if not faster than UT. Perhaps this is a reason MOBAs are popular because their perspective and speed gives them an advantage when it comes to issues such as this, that their more scripted attacks are not seen as bad, with UT however lack of dynamic options and being down at the ground level makes it quite obvious to the issue at hand.

[Dementiurge]

Thats a fair call but TF2 works very well for a MP game with Melee, its not perfect sure but it doesnt have alot of netcode issues, it is ping dependent so I will give you that when you feel like you were outside of their range and got hit it doesnt feel right but at the same time theres nothing about that situation that wont already exist with the same ping and instahit weapons.

There's a huge relative difference in the discrepancy between a hit at range and one in melee. It's not helped in Source games because the melee weapons don't use the same lag compensation, but then again... Rewind compensation could result in hitting enemies when they should be behind you, or hitting enemies who are objectively out of your range. Those are the reasons I presume Valve made that decision, and it tends to result in glitchy jousting matches between heavies, or spirals of scout stupidity.

I'm not sure why TF2 is being used as an example here, either. Most of its characters move slowly, besides the scout whom has a spammy melee weapon, and still the game suffers obvious desync issues.

Fighting games have a special luxury regarding ping. Attacks are constrained to animations. Every animation essentially gives you an extended duration of time where you already know what's going to happen and that gives you a valuable time where you can make sure the clients are synced on the same timestamps, even with dramatic ping differences.

UT is very much about movement. If you're not moving fast, you're not doing it right, sniper headshot prevention be damned. There's no reason someone should be able to steal your dog tags or shank you in the back. If you're going to do something with that close and personal touch in UT, you'll be doing it from the front, preferably with something comically oversized and explosive.

[MonsOlympus]

Fair enough if thats how you feel about it, I know we can do alot more if we atleast attempt it, I wont deny there may be problems but I think you are giving the games current netcode too much credit. People already complain about bad rubberbanding and stuttering because of the movement speed and that has nothing to do with any Melee implementation.

I cant deny that with a high ping there will be lag and it will be more noticable the higher it is, especially when you are closer to an opponent with a better ping. I just dont see how that is soley relevant to Melee weapons alone or a problem that we should be trying to solve in this thread. I agree that its something to be seriously considered but is it a good reason to avoid testing the idea entirely, well there is only one way to find out if it works right?

I mean this thread hasnt even gone to the point of coming up with Melee weapons that fit within the Unreal Universe yet so I think its abit soon to be shooting it down for alleged technical issues. Its clear though you have something else to say of a more personal nature regarding Melee and I would love to hear it, I would like to hear why that is apart from conjecture

Tell me though, when was the last time player collision failed for you in this UT, when did you run entirely through an opponent to end up behind them?

[Dementiurge]

I just dont see how that is soley relevant to Melee weapons alone or a problem that we should be trying to solve in this thread.

You did put it in the design forum. :P

For example, Halo designed melee attacks with specialized aiming and movement behaviors so that its melee attacks would have the best possible impact. That approach probably cascaded to the instant kill knife attacks in CoD and Battlefield and subsequent games, as opposed to the traditional knife weapon that Counterstrike still uses. By confronting the problem directly and pursuing a different paradigm, Halo can be credited with shaping the melee weapon design of the biggest AAA FPS titles in history. There's so much to gain by addressing "alleged technical issues".

[MonsOlympus]

You did put it in the design forum. :P

Yes design not programming I want to talk about actual weapons not theoretical technical issues for weapons we havent even designed, catch my drift?

For example, Halo designed melee attacks with specialized aiming and movement behaviors so that its melee attacks would have the best possible impact. That approach probably cascaded to the instant kill knife attacks in CoD and Battlefield and subsequent games, as opposed to the traditional knife weapon that Counterstrike still uses. By confronting the problem directly and pursuing a different paradigm, Halo can be credited with shaping the melee weapon design of the biggest AAA FPS titles in history. There's so much to gain by addressing "alleged technical issues".

Im certainly not saying we need an insta-kill melee, I said it was a possibility to have something that could counter sniper as an idea that could be taken further in this thread. When you look at games I used for example Dying Light there are very few insta-kills in the start of the game but the feedback of the melee weapons is amazing and could be done with UE4 tech thats already present in the game.

I already stated I dont like Autos and wanted more dynamic options.

[rapfamily4]

Personally, I would create just another melee weapon for the traditional gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, an entire melee arsenal would change radically the entire gameplay, even though I appreciate your idea of a weapon linked to movement skills.

Otherwise we could create a game mode where all the classic weapons are replaced with melee variants. Chaos UT did something like that, but providing just one sword.

[3Dmatic]

There is already an impact hammer in UT, to add more melee weapons won't change the game. Would just make it richer.

[MonsOlympus]

Personally, I would create just another melee weapon for the traditional gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, an entire melee arsenal would change radically the entire gameplay, even though I appreciate your idea of a weapon linked to movement skills.

Otherwise we could create a game mode where all the classic weapons are replaced with melee variants.

Well it would open up the option for a Melee only gamemode which would be cool and it wouldnt stray from the UT flavour since these weapons would be designed to be grounded in the Unreal Universe. Im not sure if it would radically change the arsenal as much as adding new guns which is why I wanted to try and approach it from this angle instead.

There is already an impact hammer in UT, to add more melee weapons won't change the game. Would just make it richer.

This is how I feel about new weapons as a whole, I dont think any UT weapon deserves to be canned and they all need plenty of love but I want new weapons as well, not just Melee but it seems impossible to get anyone to even consider it. The thing of it is other games have alot more weapons and those that dont regularly add new weapons, UTs weapon set is one of the most rigid in game history, even Tomb Raider got given a Bow and a Pickaxe recently and it shows how well new weapons can help a franchise but at the same time keeping things within the bounds of the franchise is important.


We have alot of big explosive weapons, that much is something we arnt short on but in terms of ways for a player to die UT is getting old, the death sequences are all the same as previous UT games and what Melee would do is add more variety to deaths and improve not only the player experience but the specator as well. It allows for finishers in Showdown mode as well in a similar way that Fatalities are used and while these are Autos they do not determine the outcome of the match, they are simply the cherry on already awesome frosting.

Ive been thinking of weapons that could fit within UT and Ive come up with acouple, an electric Riot Baton to control the deep space miners, scifi Knuckle Dusters... but one I came up this morning, what if there was a kick but it was just a normal small knock back to keep a player away but when wearing Jump Boots it turns into a more of an Impact Hammer styled hit. I like the idea of players using Arena equipment for multiple purposes, the pickup is already there and it just adds options without enroaching too much on the other weapons.

In terms of Impact Jumps, the game has plenty of options whether it be Rocket Jumps or Jump Boots so Im not sure entire where they fit. A Gauntlet pickup could even be added to armour or could simply replace the Berserk, there are alot of ideas here that dont replace and only expand UT and thats really what Id like for this UT

Id like to avoid swords or knives if possible, they just feel cliche like they "have" to be added for melee but Id much rather more interesting options like being able to Grapple opponents with the Hoverboard grapple n drag their ragdoll behind you. This to me is more Unreal and it brings the game more inline with games Epic has made in the past, thats whats this is really about is trying to capture that same style whether it be in a mod or core features made by the community, its not about replacing Epics work