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    Weapon Balance ideas

    Now, I know Epic's primary focus isn't going to be on weapon balancing and tweaks just yet. But, I just thought I'd make this thread just to see what other people think of my ideas. So, here they are:

    Impact Hammer

    Hammer jumping:

    -HIGHER SKILL REQUIRED. You should not be able to hammer jump by simply charging the primary fire, aiming it at a wall / ground, & releasing. This is too easy. The combination should instead be a jump / dodge (while aiming at ground) + release for vertical hammer jumps. The combination should be a wall dodge + release for horizontal hammer jumps.

    -Have the damage taken + distance increase linearly along with the charge amount. Single tap = 15 damage. Full charge = 50 damage. Minimum distance = 5% less than current distance in-game. Maximum distance = 10% farther than current distance (so 15% farther than minimum).

    -Less of a “vertical” arc when doing hammer jumps off of walls, slightly farther distance. Though I think this derives from the verticality you get when doing wall dodges in general, which should be reduced all-around.

    Enforcer

    -Primary: DMG = 18, readjusts accuracy slightly faster after firing. The current Enforcer is incredibly difficult to hit with at medium-long range, due to how inaccurate it is after the first shot. Improving its accuracy will promote players to not completely turn away from this weapon. The slight damage decrease will help balance out for the accuracy improvements.

    -Secondary: UT99 style (faster rate of fire than primary, less accurate)

    Bio Launcher
    No comments as of now, until the new build is released.

    Shock Rifle

    -Primary: DMG = 45, thicker beam for more visual clarity. The beams are currently very thin and hard to locate where they are coming from at longer distances.

    -Secondary: DMG = 55. If someone who is at normal health and without armor, they should die from being hit by a core + beam. This is because if the core was slightly to the side to set up a combo, they would’ve easily been dead anyway. It’s incredibly frustrating when someone gets lucky by dodging into a shock core, and end up being rewarded for it by not dying from a combo. If this problem isn’t fixed, players might as well start purposely running into cores to avoid being killed by combos, which is an incredibly lame & cheap tactic that the opponent cannot do anything about.

    -Slightly shorter time of delay between secondary + primary fire. Shock combos currently take a bit too long to hit. This comes from both the delay between the secondary and primary shots, and the fact that the shock cores are a little fast.

    -More ammo. It's ridiculous that a skill-based weapon runs out so quickly compared to far less skillful weapons.

    Link Gun

    -Primary: DMG = 20, slightly lower fire rate, slightly “bigger” plasma charges for more visual clarity.

    -Secondary: Remove pull, faster ammo consumption (should be used as a finisher most of the time).

    Stinger Minigun

    -Primary: Slightly lower damage & slightly higher rate of fire, faster ammo consumption (should be used as a finisher most of the time).

    -Secondary: Perfect.

    -Cut max ammo amount by 20%. The amount of ammo the weapon currently has is laughable, because you can just run around holding the primary fire for far too long.

    Flak Cannon

    -Primary: Tighter spread. This will encourage players to go for more accurate shots so they are rewarded with more damage. It will also take away the spam style of the bigger spread.

    -Secondary: DMG = 100 on direct hit. The current damage on the secondary is just way, way too high.

    Rocket Launcher

    -Primary: DMG = 90. For a long time now, rockets have done 100 damage. This has made them quite overpowered. It is the easiest weapon for newbies to use (which is why you always see them using it), and having them constantly getting lucky one-hit spam kills is not properly teaching them how to play the game. The 2k4 Rocket Launcher was fine, and it didn’t do 100 damage per rocket.

    -Secondary: Back to the rocket spread. Now, I always viewed the point of the secondary fire on the rockets to be able to have a larger area of effect, at the cost of having to take the time to load them. The reason why the current secondary system doesn’t work is because you can’t properly do more damage or have a larger area of effect with it. Why do I think this you might ask? Because they don’t fire all at the same time. The only way to try having a larger area of effect or dealing more damage is by moving the crosshair quickly as the rockets are being discharged. However, this normally results in one of the rockets hitting the player, and thus knocking them out of the range of the other rockets. Also, the current implementation of secondary rockets is too rewarding. For instance, you might find yourself in a long hallway, and you know there is going to be somebody coming around the corner at any moment. So, you load and release the rockets. Guess what happens if your timing was off? The first rocket misses. The second rocket misses as well. But, the third rocket just manages to hit them. A firing mode so rewarding should not be in the game.

    -Grenades: DMG = 90 each, higher arc and lower gravity.

    -Smoke trails added to rockets. Slightly slower projectile speed.

    Sniper Rifle

    -Primary: DMG = 70

    -Slightly slower rate of fire. It is a little too rewarding right now for you missing a shot.
    Last edited by dangerousShark09; 01-18-2016, 07:33 PM.
    Unreal Tournament CTFer.
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    #2
    Hammer: I actually think its fine as-is right now.

    Enforcer: Agreed, 18-19 damage would be good, when paired with slightly increased accuracy at mid-range.

    Bio rifle: dont even get me started

    Shock: I agree that the beam needs to look better, but besides that I actually think the shock is very balanced right now. However, I wouldn't throw a fit if they increased the beam damage to 45, and slightly decreased the cooldown between primary + secondary.

    Link: I don't have a problem with link primary, but many other people do, so I'll go with the community on this one. Just done want to have a useless link primary like UT2k4 had. The link pull I actually think is OK as a mechanic, but right now its WAYYY too strong. IMO the link pull should be a single instance pull, with a recharge time of like 6 seconds. The visuals need to be more clear on the beam, too. Right now I can barely tell if my beam pull has actually activated (if I wasnt hitting my opponent).

    Stinger: Primary is alright, secondary is STUPID for duels. I think Wail's stinger mod where you can charge up a bunch of shards at once is really cool.

    Flak: YES tighter spread, NEEDS DAMAGE NERF!! You can die way too easily even with a shield belt from a full-flak shot. 10 shards at 12 damage for 120 total would be just great, with decent damage falloff at distances. Secondary: 95 damage max. You should never be walking along, and instantly explode from an errant flak ball that someone spammed from another room.

    Rocket launcher: Oh boy, here we go. I know it's a big thing for Epic to want a bunny hopping newbie player to be able to pick up a gun and get a kill their first time around, but it should also be a big deal when that same player explodes instantly from places unseen a dozen times every map when they have full health. A direct hit should do between 90-99 damage, and have a curved falloff for splash damage instead of a linear one. Grenades are OK right now, but again, should only do 90-99 damage on direct hit. And yes, back to UT2k4 rocket spread. I remember Flak mentioning on stream one time that she thought it was too complicated and intimidating for new players to get through all those fire modes, but if a player would even care to stick around long enough to figure out there ARE multiple fire modes, its quite simple to figure out.

    Furthermore, the collision is way too big on the rockets. You can load up three rockets and create an unavoidable snake of instant death because the damage is so high, the speed is so high, and the collision is so big.

    >Damage = 90-99
    >Speed = decreased by 15-20%
    >Collision = lowered
    >Splash = curve falloff instead of linear
    >Firing modes: back to 2k4

    Sniper: Along with the shock rifle, I actually think the sniper is the most acceptable weapon in the game right now. There are very few people who think the sniper rifle is actually unfair. If the rate of fire were to be changed (like it is in the new build), I hope it's only slight, because otherwise it would feel way too sluggish. Damage is perfectly fine though.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    USER EXPERIENCE:


    In the CTF pugs, we've been trying out some of Wail's weapon mods. Some are more successful than others, but unanimously we agree that the game plays MUCH better, and much more fun with rockets that dont instantly kill you from 60 yards away when you have full health, and a flak cannon that requires a bit more aim to use (and doesnt instantly wipe out a shield belt in one shot).

    I know we're trying to make the game more newb-friendly, which is fine, but how much exposure does Epic ACTUALLY have to the newbie experience? Believe it or not, I sometimes watch bunny hopping newbs when theyre streaming on twitch.tv, and I can see their faces when they experience the rockets and the flak. They light up and get happy when they flick the mouse around and get a random kill by direct rocket hit, but they also get frustrated and confused when the same thing happens to them a dozen times in the span of 10 minutes. I'm serious, just watch them and their faces. They don't stick around for very many maps in a row. Epic can go ahead and cite statistics of weapon effectiveness across the general player base, and which weapons are doing most of the killing. But they should also cite the number of active players for a completely FREE game to download and play. Just watch people's faces when they stream on twitch and you'll see for yourself. Sometimes I even try and chat with them and help them out with tips (go time the shield belt, get that powerup by hammer jumping, use the rocket alternate fire, etc). They appreciate someone helping them out, but they get visibly and audibly bummed out. This is also one of the same reasons the PUG scene is struggling a little bit right now: many veteran players don't like the weapon balance, and the biggest part of that isnt the SNIPER RIFLE, it's the insta-kill rockets and flak cannon. Despite my nit-picky obsessive nature on these forums, I consider myself a very positive guy, and I'm just really happy to be playing UT again. But it's even gotten to ME, where I start grinding my teeth in FFA and CTF matches where it can be a constant grinder in pubs, and a headache in PUGs when people exploit this stuff (and they do).

    Epic keeps reminding us that it's pre-alpha, which is true, and I'm quite forgiving of that. But seriously, just TRY and lowering the damage for a build, and you'll see people stay longer and play more. I'll bet 10 Liandri bux on it.
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    Comment


      #3
      The above post is pretty much truth. Out of the hundreds if not thousands of ex UT players who've tried this game and played weapons in the past, there's only a fistful of guys left playing.

      Good news is the last stream Epic finally talked about weapons and movement. Joe Wilcox also mentioned they're experiencing with different scales and such. Next few builds will be very interesting that's for sure. We should wait for the next build and see how it feels, looks like they put some thought into what's wrong and that's great.
      Last edited by biggamer21; 01-09-2016, 02:58 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by biggamer21 View Post
        The above post is pretty much truth. Out of the hundreds if not thousands of ex UT players who've tried this game played weapons in the past, there's only a fistful of guys left playing, some of which don't care about the future of this game and just want to make a quick buck. I'd argue the problems with the game run much deeper than bad weapons though. The movement and scaling are totally off. The game feels incredibly cramped where at any second something will come flying at you and you're dead. Gone is the meta game of fights or juking each other, or using superior skill with weapons like flak and rockets. It's non existent currently.
        If you try my weapons set you will see that weapons in general are a lot more avoidable. Based on my experience watching the CTF crowd PUG with them, there is a lot more dancing around than you'll get with the default weapons at the moment. It looks and feels a lot more like the UT games that I am used to.
        I'm not saying movement and scaling issues don't exist -- I think they do, to some extent -- But these are all interrelated.
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        Comment


          #5
          I love your weapons Wail, I agree there's a big correlation between the 3 things. Scaling/Movement/Weapons. I do believe if your weapons or ones of similar nature were used, along with Stolid's more responsive mutator with better gravity, the game would go a hell of a long way to get where it needs to be.

          Comment


            #6
            i have no idea where op got his ideas of. thanks god epic does not listen to us.

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you for taking the time to write detailed suggestions. I think they're all pretty good ideas. Some I don't entirely agree with, but those are details. In general, I hope we'll see more changes/experimentation with the weapon balance in the future. And of course, I hope someone from Epic actually reads these forums and threads like this one.

              Comment


                #8
                Orion` I almost 100% agree with your ideas. Few words from me (everything as you said plus few more things):
                Hammer - It's already good
                Enforcer - secondary burst fire is ok (still 18dmg per hit)
                Shock - more ammo or less combo cost
                Flak - Thighter spread alone will not help us at all. I think there are needed several more changes like slower movement (it's way too easy to shorten the distance) and possibly faster damage fading on distance
                Last edited by rAge.; 01-09-2016, 09:11 AM.

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                Comment


                  #9
                  so we have 2 guys here, who agree that shaft and stinger prim shall be only finishing weapons? what do you know about this game people are you bunny hopping too?

                  every weapon needs to perform in a lot of situations. make them situational and you will end up with 10 bio rifles.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by R.Riddick View Post
                    so we have 2 guys here, who agree that shaft and stinger prim shall be only finishing weapons?
                    Oh not really, i just think he proposed good changes to those weapons. Currently link secondary is op (mostly because of pull I think), Stinger also but in less degree (very slightly changes are needed).
                    Last edited by rAge.; 01-09-2016, 09:28 AM.

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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Listen, there are a lot of different "balances" that can exit within the game. You could radically modify the movement, add new guns entirely, make maps that demand a certain playstyle, etc. We could go on and on and on about different weapon balance(s) until the Nali warcows come home. Encyclopedic books can be written about gameplay balances. Yadda yadda yadda, you get the point.

                      But there are a couple things I am certain of: In the current game state, many players both old and new, experience varying degrees of frustration when they are instantaneously blown up when they have full health, and they feel like the death was not warranted. Shock combos blow you up, headshots take you out, but both of those require certain levels of finesse and precision that most players can excuse. Walking along and having some guy smack you with a direct rocket from 40 yards away feels *frustrating* because the collision is so huge, the damage is so high, and the speed is so fast. Same with full-flaks that do SO much damage. If i get a shield belt, I should have some piece of mind that I'll be able to survive for more than one shot.

                      What I'm saying is not even some outlier opinion. Dang near every player on the competitive scene has experienced the same thing to varying degrees. Newbie players experience the same thing when they step into a server and end up dying -> respawning ->dying -> respawning ->dying -> respawning ad infinitum. Epic is filled with smart people who have lots of experience in game design, so it's not like I'm giving a lecture on a new topic here. I'll just end my pontification from my virtual podium here by saying that if Epic is just looking at the statistics of weapon useage and the spread of kills / deaths, theyre not getting the full story. ​Poll the people, we'll tell you!
                      ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
                      Frag video featuring Rookie
                      Frag video featuring Phantaci
                      Come find people to play with in IRC! All skill levels welcome!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by BigFatErik View Post
                        Listen, there are a lot of different "balances" that can exit within the game. You could radically modify the movement, add new guns entirely, make maps that demand a certain playstyle, etc. We could go on and on and on about different weapon balance(s) until the Nali warcows come home. Encyclopedic books can be written about gameplay balances. Yadda yadda yadda, you get the point.

                        But there are a couple things I am certain of: In the current game state, many players both old and new, experience varying degrees of frustration when they are instantaneously blown up when they have full health, and they feel like the death was not warranted. Shock combos blow you up, headshots take you out, but both of those require certain levels of finesse and precision that most players can excuse. Walking along and having some guy smack you with a direct rocket from 40 yards away feels *frustrating* because the collision is so huge, the damage is so high, and the speed is so fast. Same with full-flaks that do SO much damage. If i get a shield belt, I should have some piece of mind that I'll be able to survive for more than one shot.

                        What I'm saying is not even some outlier opinion. Dang near every player on the competitive scene has experienced the same thing to varying degrees. Newbie players experience the same thing when they step into a server and end up dying -> respawning ->dying -> respawning ->dying -> respawning ad infinitum. Epic is filled with smart people who have lots of experience in game design, so it's not like I'm giving a lecture on a new topic here. I'll just end my pontification from my virtual podium here by saying that if Epic is just looking at the statistics of weapon useage and the spread of kills / deaths, theyre not getting the full story. ​Poll the people, we'll tell you!
                        This is right on point. The crux of the issue is that most deaths in UT4 feel very much unwarranted.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I think the quick and easy flak multi-kills feel unwarranted as if someone is only a few yards from you and on or near the center of your screen it's an almost certain kill. I also hate dying to the flak bomb as it's too fast to dodge and does ridiculous damage.

                          For the rockets, perhaps it should max out at 90 or 95 damage to prevent the in your face insta-kills, but the splash damage increased. I like that rockets (should) requires a different type of aim (shoot the floor/walls) as it brings another element to the game, but it feels weak to me with that usage.

                          I still dislike that the fasted shock combo is a bit too far away. There are certain circumstances that it feels like you should be able to combo someone but the walls/roof are just too close. I also believe that the primary damage should be increased - I think it's not great that it takes 3 shots to kill someone and 5(?) if they have armour. I know the weapon shouldn't be the king of all scenarios and needs balance, but whilst some kills feel unwarranted... I think sometimes you can do an awful lot of damage with single rockets and primary shock and still not get the kills. I guess it's made worse because you could just pull out the flak and 1 or 2 shot most people.

                          Having said that, I always thought the old flak was not that easy to use. It was somewhere in between prediction and instant hit... making it tricky to use (especially when I was on 56k ).
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by BigFatErik View Post
                            IMO the link pull should be a single instance pull, with a recharge time of like 6 seconds.
                            This is actually a pretty good idea that I hadn't thought of. I actually like the idea of the link pull, but it's way too overpowered in it's current state. I think what makes the link pull so OP right now is that you can constantly do it. Perhaps putting a long recharge time of anywhere between 5-10 seconds would help balance it.

                            Originally posted by R.Riddick View Post
                            so we have 2 guys here, who agree that shaft and stinger prim shall be only finishing weapons? what do you know about this game people are you bunny hopping too?
                            Not "only" finisher weapons, just "mostly". They both deal constant damage to the opponent. Having them be too poweful with a lot of ammo makes them overpowered. Care to give any advice of your own, or are you just going to criticize with a baseless argument? I can guarantee I'd wreck you in-game.
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                            Comment


                              #15
                              how can you guarantee any of that, however yes ammo pool for stinger is way too large while shock is limited but assigning situational use to guns is not a good idea ever. Also the way you prefer things balanced can simply be not prefered by others, i think all the balance threads are too early in this game and handfull of threads like this have died already, i can not even be arsed to go in detail and in quotes explain where i disagree, lets just say i do. Epic will take none of your or my visions of what balance is right.

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