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Weapon Data - Competitive Player - Latest Build 2.1.16

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    #16
    Originally posted by linoleumbnprt View Post
    Challenge accepted :}
    The gametype might be FFA, but youre gonna feel like it's CTF and you just took my precious flag, buddy boy!!

    Really though, I've reviewed other competitive player's stats before in the last build before the splash increase, and it was pretty much the same story, even amongst poeple who's playstyles were molded by UT2k4. I played a lot of Quake so I appreciate a good strong rocket, but not like this! We're feelin' the pain, man!!
    Last edited by BigFatErik; 02-22-2016, 09:09 PM.
    ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
    Frag video featuring Rookie
    Frag video featuring Phantaci
    Come find people to play with in IRC! All skill levels welcome!!

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      #17
      Originally posted by RøOk!e View Post
      Can you invite me to your internal play tests? I am more than happy to teach them devs a thing or two about weapon balance..
      What needs to be iterated is this: Pancaking skill caps so that all the new players can feel accomplished/rewarded when they play the game, and aren't good, does not balance weapons. It breaks them. Balance is when everything works at the highest, most extreme levels. Once matchmaking is complete, new/bad players will only play against new/bad players, so making the weapons super powerful doesn't actually help the issue at all, it hurts in the long run.

      I think of it like.. if you think basketball is unfair because tall people are "better", do you make regulation goal height 7 feet so everyone in the world can dunk? Is that going to keep the game fair or playable at the high school level? Or college? Or pro? If things are made to be balanced at the highest level they will be balanced at the lower levels as players get better.

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        #18
        ^^ truth bombs from the Gospel of Linoleum.

        We've all had 3 hour-long discussions about this individually on teamspeak with each other, and the same theme is always agreed upon: you can theory craft tiny balance tweaks until youre blue in the face, but it's pointless because there are virtually an infinite amount of "balances" that can exist within a game space that might all end up in the same place: a game that is fun and enjoyable to play. Quakeworld probably had the most objectively bad weapon balance out of most any game I've seen, but it was still totally fun to play. UT4 is playable, but when certain weapons are exploited at the very highest level, it becomes headache-inducing for everyone involved .

        I don't know if there's a name to this concept, but I remember learning about the idea of what players will TOLERATE, and NOT TOLERATE within a gameplay experience. Tolerable deaths might include walking along, and getting insta-killed from a headshot snipe from across the map. That dude had to aim his gun at just the right spot from very far away to make that kill. Intolerable deaths might include getting within 20 yards of a player, and being subjected to a salvo of undodgeable rockets that can hardly be seen, bounce you around, and splash you from way too far away. It's too much, man!!

        It's painfully demonstrable by now that these impassioned essays on game theory dont get us ANYWHERE. We need more hard numbers from TOP players like rookie, which shows how the game is exploited the best.
        ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
        Frag video featuring Rookie
        Frag video featuring Phantaci
        Come find people to play with in IRC! All skill levels welcome!!

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          #19
          Originally posted by linoleumbnprt View Post
          What needs to be iterated is this: Pancaking skill caps so that all the new players can feel accomplished/rewarded when they play the game, and aren't good, does not balance weapons. It breaks them. Balance is when everything works at the highest, most extreme levels. Once matchmaking is complete, new/bad players will only play against new/bad players, so making the weapons super powerful doesn't actually help the issue at all, it hurts in the long run.

          I think of it like.. if you think basketball is unfair because tall people are "better", do you make regulation goal height 7 feet so everyone in the world can dunk? Is that going to keep the game fair or playable at the high school level? Or college? Or pro? If things are made to be balanced at the highest level they will be balanced at the lower levels as players get better.
          Everything in this is spot on. Hopefully the devs will realize this soon before it is too late.
          Ðarth|UA|
          Youtube

          Come play CTF and Elimination Pick Up Games (PUGS) with us at: https://discord.gg/BbPPCBx . You can also go to http://ut4pugs.us Hope to see you all there!

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            #20
            Right on rookie! We need more posts like these.

            I haven't put more than 10 minutes in the latest build because of the weapon balance. This is coming from someone who has played from the very beginning of pre-alpha and has put up with every pre-alpha bug out there and not cared much at all. I was as loyal as you could get, but these weapons are just not fun to play with. Epic should be focusing on making the game balanced enough for those dedicated and loyal testers to actually enjoy playing the buggy game. I used to be loyal because I thought they were listening. Maybe they still are, but they aren't implementing any community feedback in a timely manner. There is no reason the rocket should have remained this powerful in the latest build. They are balancing the game to allow newbies the ability to kill an expert... when in reality, that situation should never exist due to match making.

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              #21
              Post seems to have disappeared... Need damage stats. Global stats would be nice too.

              Kills tell a fraction of the story. Damage per hit is the only real way to assess AoE weapons.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                #22
                I think these stats would be very similar throughout all versions of UT. I'll try to dig out some of my old stats later.
                Current Main Issues: Tri-Rox (Remove), Scoreboards lack player stats,Team Balance.

                My Pre-Alpha Highlights 2016 to early 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlKQ349o8A | http://plays.tv/u/Smurgl

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Smurgl View Post
                  I think these stats would be very similar throughout all versions of UT. I'll try to dig out some of my old stats later.
                  2k4 is dominated by Shock and Lightning, not Rockets and Flak. Ideally no weapon would be significantly better than the rest.

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                    #24
                    The newest build: 3 different players, 11 hours of duels, death stats:

                    Link - 101 (52 primary / 49 secondary)
                    Rocket Launcher - 95
                    Flak- 82
                    Shock Combo - 56
                    Sniper - 48
                    Shock Rifle - 29
                    Mini - 27
                    Enforcer - 12
                    Bio - 0 (lol)


                    As we can see, nothing changed at all, still the most op weapons are Link primary, rl and flak. It's obvious that duel is the most hitscan mode, in tdm link/rl/flak will be even more op (+enforcer).

                    Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                      The newest build: 3 different players, 11 hours of duels, death stats:

                      Link - 101 (52 primary / 49 secondary)
                      Rocket Launcher - 95
                      Flak- 82
                      Shock Combo - 56
                      Sniper - 48
                      Shock Rifle - 29
                      Mini - 27
                      Enforcer - 12
                      Bio - 0 (lol)


                      As we can see, nothing changed at all, still the most op weapons are Link primary, rl and flak. It's obvious that duel is the most hitscan mode, in tdm link/rl/flak will be even more op (+enforcer).
                      With other weapons getting nerfs, it's undeniable that Link Primary is insanely powerful right now. In the euro ESL cup you could see the top level abusing it most of the match. It's extremely annoying to play versus people that spam it all game, it does way too much damage for little to no effort. You can eat a belt away with it in seconds.

                      I like the recent changes to the guns, with rockets getting a bit slower and flak getting some nerfs. I think Link Primary definitely needs a tweak, as well as shock combo radius, they are the biggest outliers in my mind.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by RøOk!e View Post
                        With other weapons getting nerfs, it's undeniable that Link Primary is insanely powerful right now. In the euro ESL cup you could see the top level abusing it most of the match. It's extremely annoying to play versus people that spam it all game, it does way too much damage for little to no effort. You can eat a belt away with it in seconds.

                        I like the recent changes to the guns, with rockets getting a bit slower and flak getting some nerfs. I think Link Primary definitely needs a tweak, as well as shock combo radius, they are the biggest outliers in my mind.
                        I think the rocket speed is almost okay now, but the splash could use a slight reduction. Also, the arc of the secondary flak is a bit flaccid. Link primary is the biggest problem at the moment, with the redeemer shock combo radius a hair behind it. Flak primary is in a pretty good place.

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                          #27
                          Combo radius could be smaller, indeed. But in that situation I would like to see bigger damage in exchange (up to 200 maybe? for now it's around 170). Still link and rockets and flak are bigger problems now. Flak is less op than before, but primary is still second weapon with highest kills ratio. Rockets needs some radical tweaks (I'm sure rl is the most efficient weapon of majority of players). Smaller splash radius and splash damage, single collision point (super important, for any projectile).
                          Last edited by rAge.; 03-13-2016, 11:07 PM.

                          Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

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