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Removing Grenades from Rocket Launcher - Bio-Launcher as only grenade launcher

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    #31
    Originally posted by InVader View Post
    Ya'll are just pushing your stupid nostalgia on the game for no good reason. The grenades on the RL were never particularly good in any iteration of UT. The Bio always sucked too, except maybe in UT3, where at least the alt-fire was somewhat useful.

    I don't know why we need to add another weapon, instead of putting those functionalities on the useless weapon, to make them actually useful. Were just wasting weapon slots here. The Bio Rifle was never a viable weapon - not as a mine layer or for are denial. I don't understand why can't we just replace it with the Bio Launcher and make it default. Most people are only worried about it's visual identity anyways - we can easily replace grenades with bouncing Bio blobs. There, now it's both useful AND an actual Bio rifle.

    Same with R. Remove the useless grenades and put the simultaneous 3pack with horizontal and spiral pattern back in. The current alt-fire is just a worse version of the old 3-pack: that is, equally deadly, but less fun and more clunky to use.

    While we're there, we could maybe implement the Hammer-Forcer as well. That would free up another weapon slot and we could put a more useful version of the Ripper or that bolas weapon in the game, like everyone wanted to.
    You forgot to add right in the end "in my opinion" because i totally disagree with everything you just said.

    Bio was excellent in ut99 had lots of uses to players that bothered to master it and very fun to use.
    The grenades were also excellent, you could use them like precision instruments in ut99. Shoot them at the wall and a particular angle 100% of the time they would bounce where you wanted them too.

    Their useless now but pre alpha.
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      #32
      Horizontal 3 packs and spiral pattern : ooooh yeah

      Bio is useless. Apart fresh respawn. So why not changing it ?
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        #33
        Sounds like someone wasn't very good with goo in UT, lol
        Originally posted by Mysterial
        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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          #34
          There is a time and place for everything; the grenades are great for lobbing into a room before rushing in and the Bio is awesome for leaving a gift around a corner or in front of a teleporter for a pursuer.
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            #35
            looks like some people think they're getting rid of the bio rifle; they're not. they're turning the bio launcher (the one that shoots canisters that make gas clouds) into an actual grenade launcher

            https://unrealtournament.atlassian.n...herSwitch2.mp4

            people need to pay more attention to the bugtracker, there's lots of neat stuff in there

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              #36
              As far as I know the bio launcher is a new weapon introduced in this UT? I can't recall having seen that in UT3.

              Here's my thoughts about the current rocket launcher.
              The primary shoot feels slighty slow and could be increased sligthy in speed (not to much, you want the dodge to still be usefull).
              The secondary firing 3 rockets, direct or as grenades feels a too powerfull in my opinion.
              So increasing the speed of the rocket and making the secondary shooting just grenade could be good. The cooldown in between shots for the grenade could be ajusted accordingly because I like the current fire rate for the grenade since you have to switch from the rocket to the grenade. Which means it's good defensivly but still allow your opponent to charge in if that's what he want. Too much spammy and that could affect the dynamic in a bad way because it allows kills without even seeing your oponents. In terms of skill lvl needed it's close to none unless you use it in close/mid range while both players see each other... but that's far from being optimal since in mid/close range while in front of your opponent there is batter weapons to chose from.

              If needed, while increasing the speed of the rocket, the dodge speed could be ajusted accordingly.

              I'm talking from experience coming from QuakeLive. The grenade weapon is being use defensivly or while spamming below or a level over you. In other words it pretty much stop your opponents from chasing you or allows ''random'' kills and frankly I'm not too much into random kills. I promote more skill/aim for the player, not randomness. For UT? It's really a matter of wanting or not that dynamic into the game and how it would affect every gametypes.

              If the community still want such a weapon, i'd say the damage should be kinda low considering the behavior that weapon allow, again which is defensivly and ''spammy''.

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                #37
                "Adjusting the dodge" does nothing for human reaction time, and the delay of transferring information over the internet. For defensive movement to be a thing, projectiles need to have certain attributes. They should be hard to hit with, and reward accordingly.
                Originally posted by Mysterial
                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                  "Adjusting the dodge" does nothing for human reaction time, and the delay of transferring information over the internet. For defensive movement to be a thing, projectiles need to have certain attributes. They should be hard to hit with, and reward accordingly.
                  We've been over this many threads before, but hard to hit with shouldn't be the same as random. The randomness of 100dmg rocket direct hits is a far bigger problem than if they were easy or actually hard to land. Increase in speed would be a good thing, but the rocket projectiles would also have to be smaller.

                  Regarding the bio, the huge load-up time just makes it useless for its intended use of being a mine layer. If you want to put it in front a portal, you have to charge it up. If you start charging before entering the portal, people will see what you have planned. Not a lot of people here are stupid enough to fall for that. If you start charging afterwards, it's too late and you'll be caught out of position with the wrong weapon in hand. The primary doesn't lay enough goo to cover the entrance of the portal. Even if you do, you can just jump over the goo. This gun simply needs a complete rework. There's plenty of ideas, like the big goo pool with continuous damage, or Gooba's goo crystals.

                  [MENTION=13344]code187[/MENTION]
                  Oh c'mon. Even in UT99 it's usage was highly situational. I can name exactly 1 map where its usefulness really shined, and that's DM-Grinder, where it was actually used for just spamming down the big blobs from the highground.
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                    #39
                    Bio primary has never been useful, and even if it was you could have done the same thing with tap firing the secondary.
                    :|

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Flikswich View Post
                      Bio primary has never been useful, and even if it was you could have done the same thing with tap firing the secondary.
                      No, you couldn't have because of how the gun worked. Your fire rate would have been much slower. Primary might have been useless but there are many ways to solve that without making drastic changes to the gun.
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                        #41
                        Practice it, and you'll get better at it. That means it's not random. It's really that simple.

                        I'm starting to think some of these people didn't use bio at all in UT. Originally the primary fire blobs did 60 damage. I think that was pretty useful. Also when you hit a player directly with a fully charged secondary, the AoE (which wasn't visible) was the same size as a combo, and did (probably over) twice the damage. If you caught a few people in close quarters with that gun, you left behind parts.

                        Bio wasn't OP in UT. Why they kept nerfing it over each iteration is beyond me, because it's essentially gotten not only singularly, but as well relatively weaker in each new title. With the AoE, and projectile speed it had in UT, it pretty much guaranteed that you had to be distant enough from your target that they could fairly easily dodge it if they saw it coming, lest it kill you both. It also guaranteed you had to have a decent amount of prediction to survive the shot if they didn't. It was tooled magnificently, and thus far has been the only bio iteration that I had actual fun using, not just a trolling gimmick because my target knew how hard the weapon was to use.

                        I'd be curious to see if people thought something tooled more like UT goo, with the indication of holding a charge we have now would be OP in the current weapon set. We only had audio indication in UT, and it was super low. I never once remember it doing it's job.
                        Last edited by nubizZz; 01-08-2017, 11:27 PM.
                        Originally posted by Mysterial
                        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                          #42
                          @InVader
                          Primary was used more for trick jumping, all secondary needs to do is charge the blob faster then it might be OP but worth a try. How fun was dropping it on the rocket launcher and throwing it down the ramp towards the mini and just camping the bio area in general.... Guaranteed DOMINATING spree. Apart from grinder i used it on every map. Phobos was another bio map for me But in UT4 Deck is the only good map ammo wise Other maps just run out of ammo too quickly yet still very fun on every map.
                          Last edited by code187; 09-27-2016, 04:21 PM.
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                            #43
                            Curse][ was my favorite bio map.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                              Practice it, and you'll get better at it. That means it's not random. It's really that simple.
                              I'd assume that tournament players know how to aim and they also say the direct hits are rather random.

                              [MENTION=13344]code187[/MENTION]
                              Show me one scenario where people used bio primary instead of hammer jumping. But yeah, I also think alt-fire charge time could be shorter in addition to working differently.
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                                #45
                                Probably because of netcode.
                                Originally posted by Mysterial
                                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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