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    #46
    I don't disagree with exploring tertiary fire modes — however it seems that very little is added in the proposal here for the complexity cost of a third fire mode. If the problem were that the Link beam is indeed just too "grabby", it seems like it'd be better to just tweak a property to tighten its angle of effect.



    The best approach for the Link Gun's beam IMO would be simply to combine both the proximity-link behavior of UT3 with the direct teammate-link behavior of UT2. That way you can clump together, at the risk of getting multi-killed, but each shoot at a different target … or you chain your links and cover more ground … or you can clump together and link each other, amping the head-guy's damage even more.

    I did exactly this for a mod in UT3, and IIRC a version of this was later rolled into the "ONS2" mod as well. It worked great, and players near universally loved it.

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      #47
      Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
      Uh, I don't see a difference between this and the UT2004 Link Gun, then.
      I'm simply making sure everyone vying for a change in the mechanics even understands how they work.

      Someone complained of teammates "getting in the way" of a shaft, which makes no sense, when a friendly link still does damage to enemies it touches. Unless your teammate is between you and the enemy, and then he would have to have the link out himself, and be what, shooting the other way? A quick dodge will usually fix that, but I'm trying to visualize where this would actually be a problem enough to warrant a tertiary fire mode.
      Originally posted by Mysterial
      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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        #48
        Yea, of course, if there is some other way to solve this that wouldn't require a tertiary mode just for that, it would be nice. Then the tertiary mode could be used for something more creative instead.
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          #49
          Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
          I'm way more into the idea of having different weapons/variations and have them put into the maps to work the way the Level Designer intends it to. Not all maps need to have all the core UT weapons, and not all maps need to have only the core UT weapons either.
          Exactly!
          But traditionally UT maps almost always have all the core weapons, because the player has 7 standard weapon slots to fill. The empty slots are just there staring at you! Personally I prefer how Gears of War maps having different major weapons.
          The solution could be let's have more core weapons, some of them could be sharing the same slot so mappers can have fun with choosing one for this map and another for that map.
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            #50
            I'm not opposed to what you guys are saying but too much variation on a per map basis means core gameplay won't be established. I wouldn't mind if we saw, for example, Grenade Launchers instead of Bio Rifles on ONS/WAR maps, but we should generally expect to find the core weapon set on standard DM/CTF maps.

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              #51
              What if secondary fire transferred the enemy's health to you? It would have to be pretty insignificant, maybe 3-5 health per second. Ammo consumption and the other stats can be tweaked to account for this.
              Sound designer, composer, flash game dev, and Unreal mapper. My Soundcloud. My games.

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                #52
                Originally posted by Nick_D'Amato View Post
                What if secondary fire transferred the enemy's health to you? It would have to be pretty insignificant, maybe 3-5 health per second. Ammo consumption and the other stats can be tweaked to account for this.
                That would make it a Mind Claw, instead. Not that I have a problem with it replacing the Link Gun
                Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
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                  #53
                  I wouldn't mind if the Primary fire on the link gun had a similar mechanic to the Plasma Autorifle from TimeSplitters 2. You could overheat the weapons from too long sustained fire without a break but the fire rate before overheating is drastically faster than the initial. It becomes a cool challenge to keep the gun warm without burning through all your ammo.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by peterk View Post
                    what if i dont want any of this ? I dont like that its shooting loads of small projectiles with small damage. Its ok for spamming tight areas but nothing else. It should fire fewer projectiles, but decent damage. I want a more powerful primary with fast projectile speed but with a lot lower fire rate with bigger damage and increased projectile size. I want pulsegun primary being as good to have it as main weapon. Lets say we are playing ffa, no one would choose pulse/link if shock/flak/sniper/roket is present. I'd like to have pulsegun as a good close range weapon, possible counter weapon against flak cannon or rocket launcher.
                    Please keep in mind that every weapon has it's uses (and it's not always just killing). The link gun is a support weapon focused on team plays. In solo matches primary fire's main purpose is to keep the enemy at a distance and prevent him from chasing you when you are on low HP. It gives you the necessary momentum to come up with a tactic and find some health packs. The secondary fire's purpose on the other hand is to disable the enemy and prevent him from running away.

                    Most people view the Bio rifle's primary fire as redundant, but it also has it's uses. Again, it's not about killing the enemy. It's main purpose is positioning: forcing the enemy to go down a desired path, so you can corner him. Or you can use it defensively, to prevent the enemy from chasing you.

                    Just because you don't know how to use it, doesn't mean it's useless.
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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Wail View Post
                      I like the idea of RMB + LMB to prevent your beam from locking onto anything (vehicles / allied Link guns).
                      It makes it more convenient that's for sure. Maybe add an option for players to toggle what the additional button push should do: prevent the gun from linking, or create a link instead.
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                        #56
                        Originally posted by ZippyDSMlee View Post
                        I played around with the ut04 link gun gave it a 5 or 7 projectile spread. I see the value in the instant hit beam but it needs to be stronger and use more ammo while the bolts do more damage over time.

                        Some thoughts

                        1.Bumb the damage some on the beam with the bolts still doing more damage over time. BUT have it so beams fired together do 20% more damage per team mate.

                        2.While the beam is active hit primary fire to charge up a ball of energy at the end of the gun and have to explode like the shock rifle then add more damage and radius as more beams charge into it.

                        3.Beam is 4 times stronger eats up as much ammo but is very inaccurate.
                        I am absolutely against increasing the base damage of the beam. In the hands of skilled players it already burns down 100Hp in about a single second. Try playing against godlike bots with Link Gun Arena mutator. You'll see what I mean.

                        Again, you seem to miss the idea behind the usage of the Link Gun.
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                          #57
                          By the way, I am for the UT3 linking style with a little extra range. That way we avoid a tertiary fire mode a new weapon and accidental links, which draw away the fire from the enemy, giving them a momentum.
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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Nick_D'Amato View Post
                            What if secondary fire transferred the enemy's health to you? It would have to be pretty insignificant, maybe 3-5 health per second. Ammo consumption and the other stats can be tweaked to account for this.
                            I actually toyed around with a similar concept in earlier versions of NewNet. Since players very rarely use pulse primary, the name of its projectiles (PlasmaSphere) gave me the idea. If you hit the enemy with it you steal their health, and if you hit a teammate with it you give them your own health. It worked well and made primary fire much more useful, but most hardcore "competitive" players complained about it until I changed it back because it was a slight deviation from what they're used to. It's a shame, because it's really satisfying to steal enemy health haha... Hey maybe people will be more open to something like this next time. Maybe...
                            Creator of NewNet for UT99

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                              #59
                              I liked the design of the Pulsar in UT99 with the rotating barrel.

                              What if the link not only increased the damage of another player's link gun, but increased the damage of any weapons another player is using?

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                                A tertiary fire mode is completely unnecessary.

                                2k4's link function was fantastic. UT3's had situations where its link function was good, but it was lacking in the classic DM application, and the aforementioned lack of "satisfaction" in not really controlling that you were linked beyond just pulling the weapon out.

                                The real issue is people don't know how to use the link gun. First and foremost, link training is bad. In a long hall, narrow corridor, where you want to lay down some fire, or already have some targets corralled it's fine. This is VERY situational, and VERY rare, though. The biggest mistake most people make with the Link beam is intentionally trying to link. This is fine in ONS/WAR when you're shooting large, or static non-player targets, but in a fast paced infantry battle, you don't have time to make sure your teammate is equipped, and ready, and the situation is right, etc, etc. It would have to be very premeditated, and best orchestrated over VOIP. For regular pub play with guys you don't know, using link should be mostly with the intent to lock down a target, and hold it for a teammate to shoot with another weapon, and to not damage teammates in a high traffic area when FF is on. If a teammate decides to link up with you, the idea is not to ever aim for each other. Surround, or pinch your targets, roll, and focus your aim on the targets. This works for a few reasons.

                                1. Accidental links will still damage targets. It's not bonus damage for you, but your team colored - linked - beam still does regular damage, with the bonus that you don't lose ammo when you're linked, and not doing damage. This is primarily why a tertiary fire mode is not necessary.

                                2. Considering point 1, if I'm linking a teammate through a target, and doing 1x damage, and he is shafting that same target at 2x damage, it stacks. You're doing 3x damage. This is the optimal scenario with two link guns.

                                Beyond that, it's mostly about not wasting your time aiming at a teammate for 0 damage to anything. Always look to keep your DPS up, and try to angle accidental links to bolster it.

                                As such, I'd say a hybrid of the two would be best.

                                Primary Fire: Plasma Bolts - should start with the basic UT3 base speed and RoF, which would hopefully be more effective with more UT99 style scaling, and instead of further increasing speed or RoF, increase projectile size, and give them a tiny bit of splash (with very steep damage fall off).

                                Secondary Fire: Link Beam - A hybrid of 2k4, and UT3. Direct links could work the same as 2k4. Proximity links could give a smaller bonus and work like they did in UT3.

                                All you'd really need to make sure of, is that the active link overrides, and doesn't stack with the passive link.
                                Just what I was thinking.

                                Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
                                Maybe make friend link work for all energy weapons too. Some first examples for start would be:

                                Link Gun
                                - Link to Pulse: +100% damage, hits cause 0.6s lock down equivalent to normal Link.
                                - Link to Link: +100% damage, -25% Armor Damage Absorption for the target.

                                Shock Rifle
                                - Link to Beam: +50% damage
                                - Link to Core: +100% AoE range, isn't destroyed by other projectiles (but still destroys them)
                                - Link to Combo: ammo cost reduced to 1

                                Lightning Gun
                                - Link to Primary: -50% Armor Damage Absorption for the target
                                - Link to Zoom: shows players Health and Armor when aimed directly at (?)
                                Interesting. This could expand well on warfare. Might not work well for DM but it may not be that useful in DM if balanced right.

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