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Enforcer alt-fire: UT'99 gangster style or UT3 Burst fire?

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    Enforcer alt-fire: UT'99 gangster style or UT3 Burst fire?

    Personally i enjoy UT'99 alt-fire more. Burst fire has a delay and just doesnt feel right.
    "gangster" style of UT'99 was actually useful in CQC when you were close enough to just spray'n'pray and not care about accuracy.

    didnt find any other thread in this subforum, lock if old.
    1
    UT'99 'gangster' stlye
    66.25%
    53
    UT 3 burst fire
    13.75%
    11
    something new (post in comments)
    20.00%
    16

    #2
    Burst mode is interesting, but in UT3 it was barely faster than just pressing the trigger 3 times. A burst mode should fire up to 3 (or perhaps 4) shots as FAST as possible - something like 100ms/shot - that would be quite "enforceful" of the enforcer

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      #3
      Can't have single enforcer have burst, the dual pistols be gangster style?
      Primary on dual enforcers could give you 2 dead accurate shots with primary and very slightly increased attack speed. Ganga style could give you very fast but not very accurate attack speed.

      Comment


        #4
        I personally found neither Enforcer alt-fire to actually be useful. As said before, the UT3 burst is barely faster than the primary, and the UT99 was somewhat annoying.

        A thought I had is to make the Enforcer secondary fire start out with a high rate of fire which has bad accuracy, but a dampener kicks into effect the longer the alt-fire is held, which increases the accuracy over time. If held for long enough, it would be slightly less accurate than the primary fire, but at the cost of being very ammo consuming.
        Change for the worse, and you regret every moment.
        Change for the better, and you can't live without it.
        Having the will to embrace change is the real challenge.
        --Captain Crit

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          #5
          General Enforcer functionality is something that's worth talking about. I don't have a strong opinion on "Gangsta style" vs. "Burst Fire" vs. "Grenade/Explosive Round." All of them have some merits and drawbacks.

          Personally I'm inclined towards trying out:

          - Damage falloff over distance. I think it's reasonable if the Enforcer falls off in long range engagements.
          - Armor penetration. Possibly as a secondary fire option. Might improve the weapon's value in duels where one player has the advantage of armors / weapons, and in ONS against heavier targets

          Although it's not the sort of thing traditionally in UT, I think adding these would carve out a better niche where the Enforcer fits in relative to other weapons, especially the minigun which has always overlapped in functionality.
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            #6
            Well neither one is particularly effective, but the UT3 burst at least has potential. I've never in my 5 years of playing UT99 killed anyone with alt enforcer (or piston).

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Wail View Post
              Damage falloff over distance. I think it's reasonable if the Enforcer falls off in long range engagements.
              I'm totally vetoing that. Unless you want a freshly spawned players to be helpless sniper food, damage fall-off on the base and easily forgotten weapon isn't a great idea. Damage fall-off is generally a bad idea as it removes the tactical option of shooting from afar.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by SPTX View Post
                I'm totally vetoing that. Unless you want a freshly spawned players to be helpless sniper food, damage fall-off on the base and easily forgotten weapon isn't a great idea. Damage fall-off is generally a bad idea as it removes the tactical option of shooting from afar.
                On a fundamental level I'm not sure that a freshly spawned player should be saying to himself, "There's a sniper 10,000 units away in the Torlan tower. Let me run at him guns blazing with my Enforcer and take him down." A more tactically sound response should be taking cover and acquiring other weapons. But then again, a person with a BioRifle or a Link Gun is even more "helpless sniper food" than a person with an Enforcer.

                As for whether it "removes the tactical option of shooting from afar" then we need to specify how far and how much falloff damage we're talking. Dropping a bullet from 20 damage per hit to 15 damage per hit doesn't strike me as too extreme
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                  #9
                  Let's analyze all the alts from the series, along with a few thrown around here, shall we?

                  UT99 rapid fire "Gangsta" alt fire was a pretty decent firing mode for close range or when accuracy does not matter. Doubling the fire rate at the cost of accuracy is a respectable and easy to use alt, while still being practical. However, with a second Enforcer, the rate of fire was so immense it was faster than the Pulse Rifle by a longshot, and could kill much faster than it too. Overall, great feature, but a second Enforcer made it too powerful for balance's sake. For a more fair fight, I'd reduce the effectiveness of the alt-fire if it returned.

                  The UC-UT2k4 lobbed grenade was a good firing mode. It provided a more powerful attack which deals instant (and decent) damage, at the cost of rendering you unable to use the primary for a few seconds. The alt was also one of the best ways a new spawn could deal with vehicles, as the attack had decent knockback. However, perhaps the biggest issue with the alt-fire was how spammable it was. People could launch the Alt-fire in someone's general direction and get a random chance for a kill off an unsuspecting schmuck, and it was such an issue many mods were made to reduce spam. Not good IMO.

                  The UT3 Burst Fire alt-fire was, quickly, a decent firing mode if you could get the quirks down. It was the same level of effectiveness as firing the same amount of shots down the range, if slightly better, as it did all that damage in a much shorter timeframe. However, the main issue with the burst fire was the fact it had such a long recharge you were a free kill if you didn't kill the guy you were aiming at. With some balance changes, great potential. But a pixel-per-pixel re-implementation will not fly well.

                  My concept for a dampened Gangsta would be a more powerful variant of the UT99 Gangsta. It would have horrible accuracy immediately (much more so than the UT99 Gangsta), yet improve over time. This means holding the alt-fire made the weapon more useful at range, but at the cost of massive ammo consumption. With dual-wielding, it becomes a massive issue, unless the dampening is less effective on dual-wield, or that the ammo reserves are not doubled when a second Enforcer is picked up.

                  Offering an armor-piercing round (as per Wail) is an interesting thought to say the least. It would serve as an interesting replacement to the grenades, which had a similar functionality. However, it's only really useful in vehicle gametypes, as armor is not much of an issue in non-vehicle gametypes besides being extra HP, and as such, is a very problematic alt fire that will be overused in Onslaught and vCTF, and unused in every other gametype. I'd rather see the alt fire useful in all gametypes rather than one or two.

                  Re-analyzing, I think Burst Fire. As said before, it has great potential, and was only really halted by a bad implementation.
                  Change for the worse, and you regret every moment.
                  Change for the better, and you can't live without it.
                  Having the will to embrace change is the real challenge.
                  --Captain Crit

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Wail View Post
                    On a fundamental level I'm not sure that a freshly spawned player should be saying to himself, "There's a sniper 10,000 units away in the Torlan tower. Let me run at him guns blazing with my Enforcer and take him down." A more tactically sound response should be taking cover and acquiring other weapons. But then again, a person with a BioRifle or a Link Gun is even more "helpless sniper food" than a person with an Enforcer.

                    As for whether it "removes the tactical option of shooting from afar" then we need to specify how far and how much falloff damage we're talking. Dropping a bullet from 20 damage per hit to 15 damage per hit doesn't strike me as too extreme
                    I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. I'm completely getting SPTX's back here. Maybe you shouldn't directly engage a sniper that far away, but being able to land a few shots WHILE looking for cover seems useful. I'm not saying the enforcer should be Halo 1 pistol tier, but it should still be... useful. UT3 enforcer was blah.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by SouthernRex View Post
                      I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. I'm completely getting SPTX's back here. Maybe you shouldn't directly engage a sniper that far away, but being able to land a few shots WHILE looking for cover seems useful. I'm not saying the enforcer should be Halo 1 pistol tier, but it should still be... useful. UT3 enforcer was blah.
                      I don't disagree that it should be useful, so it's a bit of a strawman that you're arguing against there. If you want to make the argument that any form of damage over distance is contrary to arena FPS gameplay -- Fair enough, but I think I'd rather carve out a specific niche for the Enforcer as opposed to the Sniper or Minigun.
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                        #12
                        How about the Alt-fire on the Enforcer shoots:

                        -A slug bullet. Basically a higher damage higher impact bullet which would do 40 damage instead of 20. However, it shoots at 50% speed as the primary fire. It can be 100% accurate, if fired at a slower rate like the primary.

                        -Electrically charged bullets, once they hit deal 10 damage but every 2 seconds deals 5 more damage until it's dealt 35 damage in total, then stops. However, if the person has any sort of armor on, all the damage goes directly into that armor, and if the armor disappears then it stops and does no damage to your health. It shoots at a rate of fire only about 30% as fast as the primary, but is always 100% accurate.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Crit View Post
                          My concept for a dampened Gangsta would be a more powerful variant of the UT99 Gangsta. It would have horrible accuracy immediately (much more so than the UT99 Gangsta), yet improve over time. This means holding the alt-fire made the weapon more useful at range, but at the cost of massive ammo consumption. With dual-wielding, it becomes a massive issue, unless the dampening is less effective on dual-wield, or that the ammo reserves are not doubled when a second Enforcer is picked up.
                          That's fair I think. In general I think having a doubled fire-rate with Dual Enforcers is kind of problematic, especially if the "Gangsta style" altfire method were retained. Rather than seeing a 100% fire rate increase, a 50% fire rate increase would be less overwhelming. Higher-but-decreasing aim error is interesting.

                          Originally posted by Captain Crit View Post
                          Offering an armor-piercing round (as per Wail) is an interesting thought to say the least. It would serve as an interesting replacement to the grenades, which had a similar functionality. However, it's only really useful in vehicle gametypes, as armor is not much of an issue in non-vehicle gametypes besides being extra HP, and as such, is a very problematic alt fire that will be overused in Onslaught and vCTF, and unused in every other gametype. I'd rather see the alt fire useful in all gametypes rather than one or two.
                          Personally I saw this as more specifically geared towards a comeback mechanic in DM/Duel gameplay. Adding an extra few points of damage per bullet against a vehicle is great until you consider they have substantially more HP than people on foot -- Plinking away with the Enforcer seems like a generally bad strategy to me when you'd probably have Flak, Rockets, Avril, etc, at your disposal. I really want an Enforcer attachment that adds a grenade launcher or something else that packs a punch onto the Enforcer for these gamemodes though. Some kind of loadout option or pickup perhaps.
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                            #14
                            Faster burst fire, in my opinion. The Unreal II Magnum had that – three shots going super fast one after another. I think in XMP they actually merged that into a single, more powerful shot, but kept the burst animation (to help netcode; it's pinpoint accurate anyway).

                            Thinking of accuracy, it was nice that in UT3 the first shot was also always pinpoint accurate. Maybe the burst could be that the first shot is always pinpoint accurate, and the two ones after are increasingly inaccurate?
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                              #15
                              @ Wail, dmg -falloff is a very stupid mechanic. The fact that you can never exactly tell when your shots stop being "effective" alone is why anything like that should never be in any competitive game ever. QL tried dmg-fall off for the LG, it was scratched 2 days later.

                              I think if you have to force an alt-fire go with auto fire + spread (but not the ridiculous spread from 99), and have primary without spread and hitscan accurate. Spread on primary is just not competitive, it's luck based **** imo. 4 pixel spread is fine btw.
                              I like the idea of a slow rof heavier single shot more tbh. Like 3 rounds at once with a more booming sound to it. Sounds nice in theory.
                              Last edited by Tetsu; 09-01-2014, 08:05 PM.

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