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    Stand combo must go.

    Let's leave for a moment obvious problems like op flak and rockets, and take a look on another problem - standing combo. I guess that everybody would agree that moving combo is one of the greatests techniques in fps games. With that on mind, I would say it's something unique and special for ut series. That's why I think it's absolutely reasonable to make combo very strong, especially if it needs so much skills. But there is one problem - standing combo is definitely NOT a skilled way to kill and it unfortunatelly gives the same reward for user as the moving combo.
    Both are from another words - one of them needs very good skills to use, it's spectacular and used mostly in aggression. Stand Combo needs practically none skills, it's boring to watch and frustrating for enemy. To make matters worse, it's mostly used in defensive as "hide yourself and stand combo". Stand and moving combo shouldn't be equal.

    My proposition to solve problem:

    -Already we have super low shock ammo on which everybody complains (and it's understanadble, because that means less superb moving combos). Maybe we could try to change combo cost? Moving combo (any angle change) will affect on ammo consumption. Like: moving combo 2 ammo, Stand combo = 8 ammo.
    -Stand combo max 140 damage, Moving combo max 200 damage
    -Visual marker

    Everything WITHOUT touching moving combo.
    Discuss plz.
    Last edited by rAge.; 05-09-2017, 02:28 PM.

    Polish community DISCORD server: https://discord.gg/eMRKbAg Join us if you are Polish and let's play some 4v4

    #2
    Why not just less dmg for standing combo, more if player has any form of forward or reverse momentum. That could at least have some kind of physics logic behind it, rather than being completely arbitrary.

    UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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      #3
      I've always felt like standing combo balances itself because killing a standing combo user is like killing an AFK player. If you're doing your job properly the opponent should melt as soon as they stop moving.

      That being said you could implement a mechanic like the Doom '16 Static Rifle, where firing a shock ball brings up a meter under your crosshair representing combo damage, which fills up as you move. It'd have to be reset each time you fire a new shock ball and disappear when your last remaining shockball hits a wall. But basically that delivers the functionality in a transparent and easy to learn manner.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Gnalvl View Post
        I've always felt like standing combo balances itself because killing a standing combo user is like killing an AFK player. If you're doing your job properly the opponent should melt as soon as they stop moving.
        That's the point. I don't think that damage or any other values should change when you stand or move. The biggest problem is that it'd just make no sense, even for a game called Unreal. And yes it's impprtant that gameplay is intuitive and not controlled by some strange rules. A solution I can think of would be slowing down the shock cores so you have better chances avoiding a combo. But that would also affect moving combos, I know.
        inUnreal.de - german Unreal Tournament Fansite

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          #5
          Overcomplicaring things again... There is nothing wrong with standing combo. The guy is standing still, so making it easier for you to kill him. DO NOT EVER make artificial changes which does not make sense without delving deep into why it was made.

          The game must be easy to understand but with cool mechanics. If the mechanics are cool but people don't understand why for example sometimes it does less damage then in other cases, that's a massive mistake which will contribute hugely to frustration and a bad feeling playing the game.

          Just again... Look at Quake Champions... it has freaking unbalanced characters, huge lag issues, OP weapons but people are playing it and so far it seems it is quite popular... Why? Because it is simple! Everything is crystal clear and you know instantly what to do and you know what the stuff you are doing is doing. Now compare it to the videos of people playing this UT... You will constantly hear something like: "What just happened?" "What should I be doing now?" "How did I get the points?"... We are overcomplicating things and it hurts the game.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Gnalvl View Post
            I've always felt like standing combo balances itself because killing a standing combo user is like killing an AFK player. If you're doing your job properly the opponent should melt as soon as they stop moving.
            This is oversimplifying. First of all, even in open fight using it is not fair to opponent. Let's suppose that you have sniper rifle and you already are in combo range. Actually if both of you have 150hp, you would certainly hit him with one sniper (65, with more luck hs - 120dmg), but he will hit you with the stombo (possibly 200 damage). Clearly benefit to stombo maker. The same concerns almost every other weapon, except of moving combo - it actually can counter stombo in open fight (face to face), as far as you are not surprised..

            Bigger problem starting in more clever usage of stombo. Defensive style is what this thread concerns in the most. Stand combo is mostly used from safe place, where somebody is hidden. I mean for example stombo from behind the wall. It's seriously important problem and affects strongly on the gameplay. Just running away and making stombos from safe position.
            Last edited by rAge.; 05-09-2017, 04:33 PM.

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              #7
              Since everything is easier to aim when you don't have to account for your own movement, are we going to apply this across the board?
              If you don't move enough your rockets, sniper, etc also do 70% damage of their normal damage and use up 4 times as much ammo per shot?
              While we are at it, why not let distance also decide damage. Hitting a combo 2000 units away takes a lot more skill than 1000 units away so it gets to do twice the damage? Naturally It would only use half the ammo as well.

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                #8
                I can honestly say I have never cursed to myself, "f*cking stand combos", but "f*cking trirox" and "f*cking flak" come out on the regular. It doesn't seem to be any more of a problem than past titles. I almost only play Elim now though, so maybe it's more of an issue in other gametypes and I'm losing perspective.
                NoBrainsNoAims^ // nbna^
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Stolid View Post
                  Since everything is easier to aim when you don't have to account for your own movement, are we going to apply this across the board?
                  If you don't move enough your rockets, sniper, etc also do 70% damage of their normal damage and use up 4 times as much ammo per shot?
                  While we are at it, why not let distance also decide damage. Hitting a combo 2000 units away takes a lot more skill than 1000 units away so it gets to do twice the damage? Naturally It would only use half the ammo as well.
                  So, which weapon is also able to do up to 200 damage? Practically only rocket launcher could be used in similiar way to stombo, so this argument is invalid. Also, distance have nothing to do with skill needed to detonate it. Close combo could be much harder to do than combo throught the whole map.

                  NBNA^ - "f*cking stand combos" +"f*cking trirox" + "f*cking flak" is my constant set But to be honest, I feel the problem with stombos only since few last builds. Probably improved sound localisation (which is good!) made it easier and much more popular. I played few duel matches with scores around 1-1 or 2-2 after 10 minutes. Opponent just running away with stombos and I was neutralised - couldn't kill him with hitscans because he constantly run for healths nor aggressive attack him with projectiles, because he protected himself with stombo from behind the corner. Very boring and frustrating.
                  Last edited by rAge.; 05-09-2017, 05:37 PM.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by rAge. View Post

                    So, which weapon is also able to do up to 200 damage? Practically only rocket launcher could be used in similiar way to stombo, so this argument is invalid. Also, distance have nothing to do with skill needed to detonate it. Close combo could be much harder to do than combo throught the whole map.
                    What does the damage have to do with anything?
                    You are arguing the moving combo takes a lot of skill and therefore should be able to do a lot of damage, but stand combos shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage as they don't take a lot of skill. Seems like your rule is that firemodes used in a way that is difficult get to do more damage than if they are using a way that is not that difficult. Now it seems like you're revising your own rule with an exception that if a firemode can't do more than 200 damage it is exempt from following it. No reason given.

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                      #11
                      FYI, I'm not even in agreement with the OP's premise. Personally, I feel that if you get pwned by a stombo you should suck up your pride and find a way to deal with it. Just thought the scheme sounded so convoluted I'd offer a simpler suggestion that's all... :P

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                        #12
                        I've found stombos to be considerably less of a nuisance in UT4 than in previous games. I'd say this is because the time to combo is much longer than, for example, UT3's time to combo. The extra bit of time it takes to detonate the ball gives the other player that much more of a chance to avoid it and deal with the **** standing perfectly still.

                        I agree that stombos are annoying because they're low effort - high reward. But by the same token, don't chase people around corners. git gud

                        I think part of the issue is that the game encourages defensive play because of the OP weapons. The time-to-kill is too low.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Stolid, you would have a point if he was using any logic in his argument.

                          The combo is the problem. Balance the combo, and movement will be it's own reward. There is no sound, logical reason to change anything about combos according to your movement.

                          You control your movement, and you shoot the most predictable target with the easiest possible fire mode to do it with. It's really not that hard.

                          Also if sniper doesn't do enough damage to the stander, shock pushes, and will screw his aim up. If he adjusts then, BAM, he did a moving combo, and earned his damage. His moving combo was also more skilled than one where he controlled his movement, because you were controlling his movement, which makes it that much harder.

                          Combos would take real skill if the core was larger, and more likely to hit things, so core placement actually mattered, and the AoE on the combo was smaller, so again, core placement actually mattered. Right now cores are a joke, because you can't hit anything with them, they do way too little damage for their speed, are only slightly more difficult to combo, and are essentially fool proof as a combo seed. Fire in general direction of target, point, click, win.

                          Also this shouldn't even be on the table for discussion when there's minimum damage on any AoE. I don't care if you're doing Tre flip, 360 no scope boot jump combos, 50 minimum damage on something with that massive of a blast is clown shoes. It's to the point where the valid counter play for every gun in this game has been reduced to "run" or "hide."
                          Originally posted by Mysterial
                          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Stolid View Post

                            What does the damage have to do with anything?
                            You are arguing the moving combo takes a lot of skill and therefore should be able to do a lot of damage, but stand combos shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage as they don't take a lot of skill. Seems like your rule is that firemodes used in a way that is difficult get to do more damage than if they are using a way that is not that difficult. Now it seems like you're revising your own rule with an exception that if a firemode can't do more than 200 damage it is exempt from following it. No reason given.
                            You clearly not understand the idea, this thread not concerns combo vs. stombo comparison, it's only used as good example. High reward but low effort, skill needed to achieve particular effect. Damage, range, splash - everything has to do with it. Used in the way I described, it's very high reward but nor skill needed nor take any risk. None other weapon can be used like that, maybe except of rockets but in less degree.
                            Last edited by rAge.; 05-10-2017, 04:26 AM.

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                              #15
                              I've never had a problem with the "Stombo". I think they're even an intermediate skill (How many new/semi-new players do you see using them?) and it's necessary to get good at them before progressing onto the moving combos. I tend to just try and keep moving as I'd always had the aim of being able to hit them regularly on the move. Whilst practising for that I sometimes went to far and was missing far too many combos I shouldn't... after reigning them back in a bit I've got a decent balance, but I still use them at times when I know I'm safe or it's a quick reaction combo.

                              As others have said, the vulnerability of being stationery is a big one. Perhaps, like many things, it's something that affects certain game types more than others. I never got interested in duel as it's a bit too slow paced for me and also for the reason that you said - some players would just run away all match and I'd wonder why people were playing it.
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