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[Weapon Balance]: Adding a slight acceleration to rockets on RL

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    [Weapon Balance]: Adding a slight acceleration to rockets on RL

    I think having a very slight initial acceleration during the first 1~1.5 secs or so to Rocket launcher before it maxes out to the constant speed would balance it out so the close combat rocket spam is sliiiiightly bit nerfed but the more distant rocket usability wouldn't taking a noteworthy hit.

    With the scaling, restricted movement of UT4, this would help to bring it more in balance with the overall game. I don't think just slowing down the rocket is the ideal since then it becomes pretty useless for medium/long distances, it's just the short distance which is the issue, hence the acceleration.
    Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 12-12-2014, 04:35 AM.

    #2
    Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
    I don't think just slowing down the rocket is the ideal since then it becomes pretty useless for medium/long distances, it's just the short distance which is the issue, hence the acceleration.
    But rockets aren't supposed to be ideal medium/long range. Weapons in UT aren't supposed to be equals or "balanced" in a way were all guns are viable in any situation. The guns are supposed to be useful is certain roles. Rockets are one of the best close range weapons and at medium and long range they are used to deny access to areas by spamming them into a hall. Rockets at medium/long range are also used for prediction shots or sending out splash damage to try and find an opponent you lost track of.

    If I had to pick a time when rockets would get acceleration it would be in spiral mode. Spiral mode is usually used for prediction shots or at longer ranges anyway.

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      #3
      I'm pretty wary of this since it might feel like the projectiles are sluggish coming out of the gun. That is definitely not desirable. I'd actually be more inclined to think that the reverse would be better -- Initially higher velocity with a slight deceleration over 0.1 to 0.2, so that they feel snappy coming out of the gun but even out quickly.
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        #4
        I'm fully aware of that but there exist a range for what parameter values works and what doesn't for every weapon in every situation. Currently Rockets sit pretty much in the almost useless range for long range but not totally useless since you can still spam rockets in corridors where other guys keeps fighting each other as they are unaware of your doings at the other end so it's a rather huge chance to hit enemies that way since they aren't aware of the incoming rockets (Deck corridor or Spacer corridors are good examples).

        By slowing down the rocket speed you decrease the chances of a successful hit in such situation due to the other guys are already dead or have moved to another place on the map by the time the rocket gets there. Currently I feel this is about the slowest speed the rockets need to be a slightly viable option for long range spam. I know you can switch to other even more useful weapons under the circumstance but sometimes you have just that weapon at hand or I generally feel there should always be at least like 1/10 chance of being successful with any weapon under any situation and not be TOTALLY useless. That's my point here.

        While the initial 1 sec acceleration or whatever duration again would maybe very slightly less decrease the close combat domination while still easily keeping it the most useful close range weapon together with link gun primary and flak.
        Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 12-09-2014, 12:05 PM.

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          #5
          The in place mechanic for long range efficacy has always been lock. If the rocket accelerates, it really would only marginally increase long range efficacy of normal rockets, while decreasing locked rocket tracking.

          The current ratio of speed to AoE is off. One of them just needs to come down, though acceleration isn't a bad idea, and as it's a propelled missile, not too unreal.
          Originally posted by Mysterial
          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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            #6
            I'd vote no for acceleration on rockets. My point of reference is the UT2004 link gun primary shots started off slow and gained acceleration, and I found them impossible to hit anything with intentionally.
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              #7
              Should be noted the acceleration I'm thinking of is very very subtle and probably ~1 sec or so tops would be best so that it already starts a decent speed but slightly bit accelerates during this 1 sec. I'm thinking only for those situations where you have a guy pointing RL at you on a distance roughly 3-player length away so there is slight added time for a dodge/strafe because currently I hate getting into those situations when it doesn't matter whatever I press I still cannot escape it because the movement is so bulky to be able to make the enemy miss when you are at close enough distance.

              Even in UT3 it was possible to dodge under such conditions due to how the dodge + strafing worked. Strafing is very "instant" and snappy in UT3 (the snappiest in the series) and the dodge speed is fairly high so it works even pretty well to dodge close combat flak spam & rockets. Of course not a garantuee but at least a slight reasonable chance of doing it.

              But the more I think of it the more I start thinking that I'd rather change movement parameters slightly bit and keep RL as is it is right now because flak 2ndary is pretty much the same too in this regard, it's fairly easy to drop the flak shell right at the players feet at close distance.

              I think the game revolves too much around doing this tactic to simply finish the guys up close and taking advantage of the game's bulky movement, would be fun to slightly lessen this kinda gameplay's intensity because hitscan is typically underpowered a lot of times in deathmatch currently due to how effective the splash dmg spam from close range is. Doesn't mean sniper is totally useless but it doesn't give you enough fast kills compared to flak or rocket spam.

              The other day I got a 3-streak monster kill on NickTest with flak when going berserk on players up-close thanks to the problem with movement I've described. I would never manage that with sniper.
              Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 12-11-2014, 06:48 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
                Should be noted the acceleration I'm thinking of is very very subtle and probably ~1 sec or so tops would be best so that it already starts a decent speed but slightly bit accelerates during this 1 sec. I'm thinking only for those situations where you have a guy pointing RL at you on a distance roughly 3-player length away so there is slight added time for a dodge/strafe because currently I hate getting into those situations when it doesn't matter whatever I press I still cannot escape it because the movement is so bulky to be able to make the enemy miss when you are at close enough distance.

                Even in UT3 it was possible to dodge under such conditions due to how the dodge + strafing worked. Strafing is very "instant" and snappy in UT3 (the snappiest in the series) and the dodge speed is fairly high so it works even pretty well to dodge close combat flak spam & rockets. Of course not a garantuee but at least a slight reasonable chance of doing it.

                But the more I think of it the more I start thinking that I'd rather change movement parameters slightly bit and keep RL as is it is right now because flak 2ndary is pretty much the same too in this regard, it's fairly easy to drop the flak shell right at the players feet at close distance.

                I think the game revolves too much around doing this tactic to simply finish the guys up close and taking advantage of the game's bulky movement, would be fun to slightly lessen this kinda gameplay's intensity because hitscan is typically underpowered a lot of times in deathmatch currently due to how effective the splash dmg spam from close range is. Doesn't mean sniper is totally useless but it doesn't give you enough fast kills compared to flak or rocket spam.

                The other day I got a 3-streak monster kill on NickTest with flak when going berserk on players up-close thanks to the problem with movement I've described. I would never manage that with sniper.
                Yep, I agree, movement right now is probably the biggest problem, at the very least base speed and dodge speed should be increased.



                If that's done I think rockets would be more balanced. Also, instead of acceleration, how about we lower current rocket speed a bit but then after about 1 sec of flight it INSTANTLY accelerates to a higher speed (secondary thruster turns on?)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
                  Yep, I agree, movement right now is probably the biggest problem, at the very least base speed and dodge speed should be increased.



                  If that's done I think rockets would be more balanced. Also, instead of acceleration, how about we lower current rocket speed a bit but then after about 1 sec of flight it INSTANTLY accelerates to a higher speed (secondary thruster turns on?)
                  I think the running speed is rather suitable personally in respect to the game's scaling and stuff (further increasing it will make the gameworld feel even smaller which personally I wouldn't want since it's already on the border of feeling too small IMO). Strafing could possibly do a slight boost though or more importantly make the directional change pretty instant and get rid of that stop/start acceleration to make the character feel snappier which will increase the difficulty to hit ppl full-on up close too.

                  Dodge is fairly good as is but personally I'd vote the dodge speed getting a minor boost (maybe 15~20%?) to increase its usability in combat and harder to predict and that's about it.
                  Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 12-11-2014, 01:34 PM.

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                    #10
                    Each game was able to find a balance with the rocket speed. I do not think that accel is necessary or desirable. The issue with rockets is giving them 2k3 speed, UT3 fire rate, and UT99 damage. The combination of these three attributes is just too powerful. Reduce the damage and firing rate, and work from there.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by TheWhiteDragon View Post
                      Each game was able to find a balance with the rocket speed. I do not think that accel is necessary or desirable. The issue with rockets is giving them 2k3 speed, UT3 fire rate, and UT99 damage. The combination of these three attributes is just too powerful. Reduce the damage and firing rate, and work from there.
                      For me the boringness of RL / movement mechanics aren't due to the damage settings or DPS but how easy it's to hit players, it's too easy, up-close leading to a gameplay envolving TOO much around that. Chaging damage or rate of fire won't decrease the easiness of landing a success hit. I have no problem with the high damage but the problem is the satisfaction is so low when it's that easy to hit when getting close and spamming at the feet. Especially when you even get a slight "higher stance" advantage to be able to shoot rockets at a downwards angle the issue is particularly noticeable and it's rather impossible to escape and good players do this all the time because it's so obvious how much advantage it brings.

                      But guess it's a matter of taste as usual. Personally though I wish different kinds of tactics to be viable so we get a more dynamic gameplay and dynamicness means usually fun for everyone, no matter their taste.

                      People are pushing forward more aggressively in UT4 than other UT games is my experience and I just think it gets TOO obvious it plays a lot like that. People are like glued to each other all the time. I can't be the only person who have thought this so far?
                      Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 12-11-2014, 01:53 PM.

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                        #12
                        Well, the speed may need to decrease, but it's hard to say how much. One hit kills and the ability to pump rockets out so quickly both contribute with the projectile speed to how easy it is to hit with rockets right now.
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                          #13
                          Increasing movement speed will make all of the weapons harder to use, not just the rockets.

                          I still think rocket speed should decrease, although I can tell that the current thinking of keeping them fast is to make direct hits and air rockets happen more often.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by TheWhiteDragon View Post
                            One hit kills and the ability to pump rockets out so quickly both contribute with the projectile speed to how easy it is to hit with rockets right now.
                            How easy it is "to hit" with a rocket has everything to do with projectile speed, and AoE. How easy it is "to kill" with rockets starts to factor in damage, splash degradation, and RoF.

                            I understand you like the idea of "dog fighting" rockets, and that's cool, but it unfortunately will leave the RL up to precharging salvos to keep up with the potential lethality of the other tier 1 weapons in the game. Rockets in 2kx were the worst in the series, and it primarily had to do with the damage, not discounting the movement to aoe disparity being a large factor.

                            The RoF differences (at least as listed on liandri) are tiny. Are we currently at the UT3 rate? It had the fastest RoF of the lot, which I would be okay with giving back that tenth, but the more important thing is projectile speed, which probably also needs to be at the slowest of the lot, the U1/UT speed.

                            Doing damage under 100 would be pretty good justification to bring back 6 packs, tbh.

                            Originally posted by cafe View Post
                            I still think rocket speed should decrease, although I can tell that the current thinking of keeping them fast is to make direct hits and air rockets happen more often.
                            Agreed, and in case of the latter, it's best to decrease aoe, and not damage so said mid airs are more potentially lethal. As well, it would further incentivize shooting for the body, over gauging splash, and maybe, just slightly decrease the skill ceiling drop that salvos offer.
                            Last edited by nubizZz; 12-11-2014, 03:37 PM.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                              Rockets in 2kx were the worst in the series, and it primarily had to do with the damage, not discounting the movement aoe disparity being a large factor.
                              Rockets were weakest in UT2004 primarily because of movement. Between 2003 and 2004 the speed of the rockets was nerfed. It had the same effect that Cafe has predicted where air rockets happen less often. What was a fast paced dance in 2003 became a tedious slog in 2004, and the rockets was a large factor. They then went the other way in UT3 by changing the firing rate. Let's not forget why UT99 slow rockets were ditched in the first place.

                              It's the combination of the three that cause trouble. Past history suggests that slow rockets causes problems as well. Which is why I suggest an incremental approach, and change the obvious first. Fix the firing rate back to the traditional 1.2 and let players adjust. Then we'll get a better idea of what projectile speed should be.
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