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  • Throwing enforcers

    I personally never use the enforcer, but I know many TDM players consider them essential. The ability to throw your enforcer to a freshly spawned player was a big part of TDM.

    There's been commits that prevent players from throwing their enforcers. What do you think? Good or bad?
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  • #2
    I'm okay with this personally.

    One idea that I want to try is making it so that you can throw your Enforcer -- But if you throw it and you are still alive, it counts down and then explodes. The idea here would be that the weapon is biometrically keyed to the user and cannot be used by other competitors unless they die holding it. Having some rationale around why it can't be thrown seems better to me than simply disallowing it.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by TheWhiteDragon View Post
      I personally never use the enforcer, but I know many TDM players consider them essential. The ability to throw your enforcer to a freshly spawned player was a big part of TDM.

      There's been commits that prevent players from throwing their enforcers. What do you think? Good or bad?
      It's too early too discuss if it's good or bad. Having too good weapon just being respawned is hardly a good thing.
      So it depends on final weapon balance.

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      • #4
        I think you should be able to throw anything except the IH and Translocator (when enabled). I still want to see the option to throw armor/shields/helmet/etc., but not health.
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        • #5
          I'm not so sure this is a good idea to be honest. Sacrificing your only ranged weapon when you first spawn is kinda silly when you have other fighters with other ranged weapons. Unless you're good at stealth, chances are you're gonna get shot down while you only have an Impact Hammer.

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          • #6
            I think a few are misunderstanding the strategy that this change prevents.

            It's TDM. You already have a rocket launcher, but your team mate just spawned and has nothing. You throw them your enforcer that you weren't using anyways to give them dual enforcers. Your teammate now has a better fighting chance.

            You can no longer throw enforcers, preventing players from using this strategy.
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            • #7
              Dual enforcers are way OP but I think the strategy of tossing it to new spawned teammates was a good one.
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              • #8
                Ah... I get the gist now.

                Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea... sorry for not understanding.

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                • #9
                  If dual enforcers are OP, then that should be adjusted.

                  Really in the vein of the starting weapon discussion, without this mechanic, why do we even keep the enforcer at all? It would already make more sense to me to keep it as a starting weapon in TDM, but contemplate starting with link in other game types. I know link is pretty juiced up at the moment, but these are also things that can still be adjusted.

                  The only appeal to a properly balanced enforcer to me, is the ability to double up in a weapon scarce scenario.
                  Originally posted by Mysterial
                  An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                  • #10
                    If dual enforcers are strong then two players together with enforces are strong, except it takes two players coordinating and playing together rather than just dropping the weapon*

                    Hijacking this thread because relevant.

                    Throw weapon should be disabled in TDM. Quite often cited as a way to "improve teamwork" I will argue it manages to achieve the inverse - less teamwork or team centric thinking is required. throwweapon gives players a team oriented ability, this in an of itself does not increase teamwork.

                    Consider the following:

                    With throwing enabled

                    1) Pickup a weapon
                    2) Optional : Communicate you have a weapon available
                    3) Dropping weapon when a weaponless teammate is nearby

                    With throwing disabled

                    1) See weapon available - decide you do not want it
                    2) Relay this information to the team
                    3) Guard/wait for team mate, ensure enemy players do not ninja it.
                    4) Optional : Take weapon even if not required because of enemy pressure / other items spawning needing your attention (can't leave a weapon lying around)
                    5) Team mate arrives, takes weapon. yay

                    2 could be considered optional the same way communicating you have a weapon available for dropping in the first scenario. However this does not make a great deal of sense as the player at the weapon could be waiting a completely unknown duration.

                    This scenario plays out in tdm when a player already has a specific weapon and does not need more ammo. This means it would rarely occur and when it does it is not overly important.

                    Even at this cursory glance level there is more communication and "teamwork" involved when throwweapon is disabled.

                    Removing throwweapon also involves deeper thought/planning on a per weapon pickup basis. Do I really want to take that weapon? What do my team mates have? Could someone else utilise it better than me? Where are my team mates (will waiting for another player take us out of the game too long?) These decisions need to be made when the weapon is still on its spawn plate. Some of these decisions are the same when the player has the weapon with weapondrop on, however they are made when the player carrying the weapon sees other players - and by and large occur organically rather than the forced model of no weapondrop.

                    Removing throwweapon also allows weaker teams to punish teams with individually stronger players via more efficient denial. If an enemy player is a beast with weaponX in order to deny with traditional throwweapon on the weapon must be denied every single pickup otherwise the opposing team can simply give it to the better player. With throwweapon disabled players only need to deny to the specific player that wants it.

                    On the flip side the team with the beasty weaponX player can make it a priority for the team to make aggressive moves onto the weapon so the weaponX player can take it.

                    This becomes more interesting at a lower level with uneven teams where it may be a case of one player being significantly better than his three team mates. With throwweapon enabled this player can simply be fed weapons by his team mates. With it disabled they have to go around taking weapons together.

                    Of course the obvious work around is killing ones self to drop the weapon, however this is a “cost” and would not always be a good solution unless the player is naked with that weapon alone.

                    And because thinking about this would not be worth all that much without an existing working example we can look at Quakeworld. The original TDM game that works with 1-2 "strong" weapons per map on longer than UT spawns. And it works perfectly without drop weapon. Of course there are differences faster quad/armor, backpacks and much slower team weapon stacking come to mind - but it still plays perfectly fine and is very team orientated.

                    *Coming full circle. If two enforcers are considered strong then two fresh spawns playing together will be strong. In a team game this makes sense for players to play together. There is much more teamplay involved in playing together in this way than the weaker aimer dropping their spawn weapon for the stronger aimer.
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                    • #11
                      That is a bit preposterous. You are now strictly enforcing a policy that prevents newly spawned players from receiving assistance from teammates. You force the other teammate to take action, but if you are guarding the weapon, you are not helping that other player get to your position. I do not see that as team work.

                      Throwing the Enforcer to a newly spawned teammate does not relieve him of the responsibility of gathering weapons and pickups; it assists him in getting started, and that is true teamwork.
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                      • #12
                        To add to what Crotale wrote.

                        By guarding a weapon you are likely hurting your team by not getting frags thus allowing the other team to get ahead, you are also abandoning your team to fight a man short, and you make yourself an easier target potentially feeding the other team and signaling to them that a weapon is available near your. If they frag you they then get 2 guns rather than one.

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                        • #13
                          Enforcer as a design choice only works because it's weaker individually but can be doubled up. That ability to go crazy dual wield action movie style is its hook on both a strategic and novelty level. Take it away and you are left with a generic pistol starting weapon that is either going to be entirely OP or entirely worthless, since you won't have the option of doubling its firepower through teammate interaction.

                          If taking away the ability to dual wield enforcer is still on the table, then every other crazy starting weapon idea would need to be too.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Unreal Gladiator View Post
                            By guarding a weapon you are likely hurting your team by not getting frags thus allowing the other team to get ahead, you are also abandoning your team to fight a man short, and you make yourself an easier target potentially feeding the other team and signaling to them that a weapon is available near your. If they frag you they then get 2 guns rather than one.
                            Time is currency in duel and to a lesser extent TDM. In duel your stack and level of control should be dictated by how much free time you have available to pressure the out of control player... which is not relevant right now.

                            In TDM with no drop weapon you would be trading your time (and possible kills) for the present (you weapon - team mate no weapon) while guarding a weapon for the potential of increased kills in the future (you weapon - team mate weapon). Working out if you need to stay, team mates communicating when they need guns, communicating that there is a weapon available (either due to spawns or killed enemy/team player drops), team mate responding and so on are all important aspects here. All of these leverage aspects of team play more than the simple act of giving the other player a gun^.

                            More decisions and trade offs are good. It would not always be a good decision to do what I have outlined, in which case your unarmed teammates do not receive the weapon. This is fine.

                            With current dynamics the team may be "down" a man but the game overall would play differently and this as a result what you say would probably not be the case.

                            Your downsides are aspects players need to deal with in order to get team mates weapons. They don't sound insurmountable, or even unusual. Don't die, don't make a sitting duck of yourself. Situational awareness and common sense that players should apply most times during play.

                            dropweapon/nodropweapon isn't better or worse, simply different. dropweapon has always been pushed as a feature that improves teamwork, but in reality I don't feel it promotes playing as a team all that much. It does promote giving things to your team mates, but as for playing together it does nothing. My initial post exists because I doubt there will be a thread for dropweapon + TDM at any point and this looked like a good candidate for slotting it in.

                            ^To take this point a little further. Irregardless of drop weapon or not, if two players meet and then play together team play is occurring. It does not matter if a player drops a weapon or not as you are still playing together assisting each other. This idea and decisions surrounding it is what teamplay is at its core. The simple act of dropping a gun? Not teamplay. The dropping of medpacks in other games? Not team play. The player with the enforcer should probably play near the other team mate anyway, regardless of what is dropped for them.

                            *this makes TDM sound very +forward and cessy as it implies that players must always be pressuring the opposing team. I don't think that is a completely accurate representation of how any iteration of ut has played.

                            Originally posted by conX5 View Post
                            since you won't have the option of doubling its firepower through teammate interaction.
                            Of course you have this option. Two players can play together with enforcers. Double firepower? Check. Teammate interaction? Check, to a much higher degree than simply dropping it for someone else

                            PS Don't read my posts as for/against enforcer dropping as it is a separate issue. Or even for that matter for/against dropweapon at all. Its fun to discuss things!
                            Last edited by joellll; 12-20-2014, 08:36 AM.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by joellll View Post
                              dropweapon/nodropweapon isn't better or worse, simply different. dropweapon has always been pushed as a feature that improves teamwork, but in reality I don't feel it promotes playing as a team all that much. It does promote giving things to your team mates, but as for playing together it does nothing. My initial post exists because I doubt there will be a thread for dropweapon + TDM at any point and this looked like a good candidate for slotting it in.
                              I feel this is incorrect. By sharing weapons, you're basically allowing your teammates the capacity and capability to do more damage to the other team. They may not always do this, of course, due to the chaos that ensues in games.

                              Another personal example, something which I did for a number of years, was to trade out weapons with teammates because I was ineffectual with them - high ping, packet loss and general internet problems didn't make me the best candidate to use hitscan weapons. So, in response to this, I would, in some maps, be put in positions where I would have to time and control hitscan weapons, but would try to "spread the hitscan love" around to my team mates because they were far more effective than I was with them. Conversely, they would often throw me the bio rifle because I could make use of it better than they could.
                              Sharing hitscan weapons in hitscan-orientated maps such as Osiris2, Campgrounds and Goliath in UT2004 was bitterly important.

                              In my opinion, by not being able to share weapons among teammates (hypothetically), I would foresee a vastly detrimental experience than one could possibly have by being dominated by a better team and being out-controlled with the ability to throw weapons - which was an absolutely horrible, humbling and greatly frustrating experience.
                              By not being able to share what little resources you have at your disposal (be they a measly assault rifle, link gun or enforcer) against a better team who has complete map control, you have a diminished capacity to do damage to them and take back control.

                              ^To take this point a little further. Irregardless of drop weapon or not, if two players meet and then play together team play is occurring. It does not matter if a player drops a weapon or not as you are still playing together assisting each other. This idea and decisions surrounding it is what teamplay is at its core. The simple act of dropping a gun? Not teamplay. The dropping of medpacks in other games? Not team play. The player with the enforcer should probably play near the other team mate anyway, regardless of what is dropped for them.

                              *this makes TDM sound very +forward and cessy as it implies that players must always be pressuring the opposing team. I don't think that is a completely accurate representation of how any iteration of ut has played.
                              The singular act of dropping a weapon might not be considered directly as an act of "teamwork", but it still benefits the team as a whole. The dropping of ammo packs in Battlefield? It helps the team as a whole. The dropping of medpacks, the repairing of quads, boats, helicopters and tanks, the spotting of enemy soldiers and vehicles? It helps the team as a whole.

                              What you are describing as team play is what I would consider the COD public TDM experience; everyone in a team is a teammate in name only, and offer no aid in anything other than to reward the opposing team with killstreaks and help me ascertain the location of enemies using the minimap. If I kill an enemy a teammate has damage, I get an assist and vice versa. Teamwork in UT in general is a far more complicated beast

                              In regards to there being no teamwork in dropping weapons, allow me to make an example, from UT2004 (though you could switch out different weapons based on what version of UT you have experience with):

                              Let's say I have just died, and have respawned close by to a teammate. My teammate sees that I have no weapon, or I spam my shield gun/piston primary in the Internationally recognised signal which means "give me a weapon!".
                              My teammate throws me a link gun, and switches to his shock rifle. An enemy then comes close by and we both engage him. I use my link secondary which has a lockdown effect on the opponent, that prevents him from running away, whilst my teammate either shock primaries him or combos him. We worked together in gaining that frag.

                              But I digress.

                              OT: Ultimately, the only thing you cannot drop is the enforcer, which might seem perfectly reasonable, could hurt gameplay ever-so-slightly because having a slight boost to DPS and damage output always helps.
                              Remember the laughable peashooter weapon in UT2004 that was known as the ass rifle? I'd much rather have a teammate throw me one they didn't need or had use for than not throwing me one at all. Every little helps after all.

                              However, I am saying this without knowledge of any present balancing issues the current iteration of the enforcer has at present. Just as a disclaimer
                              Last edited by DSK-; 12-20-2014, 02:30 PM.
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