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Link Pull - Why I think it should be toned down or removed

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  • Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    Why should someone get punished for pushing confrontation, and making an exciting game that is more fun to watch?
    Because it negates the armor system and gives a precedent of dumb aggression over tactical gameplay. When people do it in quake and it comes off its always calculated. Doing it with rockets in UT3 was cheap, and it's still cheap now. There should be times where being aggressive pays off, but when it's happening constantly in my eyes its a broken game

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    • Not really sure I follow. If you have double the effective hit points, and weapons are balanced, being aggressive, I should need to land double the shots. Basically, have twice the aim.

      Sounds like you're basically asking for stack advantage to be paired with a weapon that allows you to easily keep stack advantage, and positional advantage as well. If you've got the aim, the armor, and the positioning, you shouldn't need an OP weapon to keep it.
      Originally posted by Mysterial
      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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      • I don't have a problem with a pull weapon in theory, at least as far as general combat is concerned, but there is one fundamental problem with it when it comes to duel in particular.
        In duel you often have the situation of one player being stacked and one single opponent respawning in a small map. Having a weapon that more or less prevents someone from escaping allows you to guarantee a frag. Since you have a stack advantage and no other opponents it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill, there is no real danger to you in using it unless they managed to pick up a flak. Being in control also means you tend to have another close range weapon to switch to if you wanted to or a long range one to deal with them having that flak.
        What this means is that you can't balance the link pull by nerfing its damage, ammo or giving it a cooldown, so it's hard to see how this weapon could ever work in duel.

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        • If the weapons are balanced it isn't an issue AEnubis. We both agreed rockets are too fast so lets just leave it at that

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          • Sorry but I question anyones intelligence and/or intention that is for either mechanic. (lockdown/pull)
            Last edited by Tetsu; 05-21-2015, 11:30 AM.

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            • To push or to pull, that is the question.

              Sometimes its better to test, to experiment, just like flak power was experimented these last months.

              @Epic, could It be possible to have push effect in the next build ? It is pre alpha right ?
              Cunni, 37 years old, 16 years of UT, 90% CTF, 10% Duel
              https://www.twitch.tv/cunni_ut
              http://plays.tv/u/Cunni
              Discord PUG Community

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              • I don't really care about push or pull, IMO lockdown is the bigger problem. It makes it so you can't move at all, not even get closer to someone to flak them. Also messes with your aim, and is very disorientating. Pull is a bit annoying but at least it's not constant and still lets you get closer to someone or go behind a wall and run away.

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                • I already made a prototype Link Gun that removes lockdown and the pull multifire effect (replacing it with an AOE multifire blast). You can see it here.
                  The functionality is a bit wonky at the moment but I had a good idea that I think will be a better approach that I plan on implementing once the next build drops.

                  If the next build supports it I am hoping that raxxy will be able to set me up with a server where I can run a custom ruleset so people can play with the modified weapons online and give feedback and we can iterate more rapidly on these ideas.
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                  • Thanks a lot Wail ! I've been following your work for a while and thats exactly what we need, a "prototype server".

                    Good job man.
                    Cunni, 37 years old, 16 years of UT, 90% CTF, 10% Duel
                    https://www.twitch.tv/cunni_ut
                    http://plays.tv/u/Cunni
                    Discord PUG Community

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                    • I know they are trying some to put more impulse on weapons for jumps, but generally speaking, most of the weapons push you around a lot more now, and I really don't like any of it. It's one of my gripes with QL, and I find push way more annoying that lock down.
                      Originally posted by Mysterial
                      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                        I know they are trying some to put more impulse on weapons for jumps, but generally speaking, most of the weapons push you around a lot more now, and I really don't like any of it. It's one of my gripes with QL, and I find push way more annoying that lock down.
                        Well I wouldn't like push like in QL either, I meant that if it was still manually activated by pressing primary only so often it would be better than lockdown IMO.

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                        • Apart from being quite OP one of the good things of the QL LG is that it at least works for both in control/stacked players and out of control/weak players. There are many situations to effectively use it in whether it's attacking or defending.
                          The link secondary pull however is something that is great to use if you're stacked and attacking/chasing, but terrible to use in defending/escaping. The fact the link has the benefit of pulling means it can't also have high dps, meaning that if you use the link in defensive play without that pull effect you've got an underpowered weapon. This when you're already in a very disadvantaged situation.

                          Compared to pull a slight lockdown effect is far more fair, it still prevents escaping to an extent, but does work OK for attacking as well as defending.

                          For the record I'm not a fan of any of these effects, the only reason that justifies having any effect at all is to distinguish the link from the mini.

                          If I was forced to come up with something I'd increase the spread on the mini and have the link only slightly lower a player's movement acceleration. This way someone can still run at full speed, but it takes longer to get there, you shouldn't adad as you'd effectively stand still. Dodges are also still possible but you should only do it when you can break line of sight for enough time to reach max running speed again. Obviously this has to be combined with a fairly low DPS.

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                          • The thing is lockdown steadies your pov. So you still have a pretty good counter. Cram loaded rox down their throat. Same counter as link trains. The problem with pull, or push, is now you need super twitch skills to adjust your now half blind pov to counter your target with anything. It's a bit tougher to aim when you think your moving one way, then get pulled the other. It's not really hard to tell that you're suddenly not moving, and aiming while not moving is easier than otherwise, it's just obviously dangerous.

                            I have no problem aiming when locked down. Thus far, I haven't been able to land a shot while getting pulled. I may be an anomaly in not minding lock down, but push/pull is at least as frustrating for me as most people make lock down sound.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                            Comment


                            • While there are plenty of objective things to say about each variation a considerable subjective aspect remains. Some people are more annoyed by not being able to aim and some people are more annoyed by moving slowly even if that means being yanked in a certain direction sometimes. It probably says something about if the person is more offense or more defense oriented. Whatever the effect turns out to be, assuming there will be one, I hope it will be much milder than what we've had so far because they're all annoying no matter what.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stolid View Post
                                It probably says something about if the person is more offense or more defense oriented.
                                Sound theory. I'm certainly more offensive, so unless your locking me down to run away, it's not going to bother me as much as pushing me away.
                                Originally posted by Mysterial
                                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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