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    #16
    Originally posted by FPSYX View Post
    I don't imagine the alt-fire primarily as damage dealing, it's really a one use "getaway" tool. (Or get to somewhere hard to reach.) Nor does it behave like a grenade, it seems my footage mistakenly gave some of you that impression. It's supposed to explode mere centimeters in front of your gun, right after the gun has deployed its shield. It literally blows in your face to give you that strong backward push. (I shortened the travel distance before explosion in my latest version to avoid the confusion.)
    The splash damage I mentioned would be much less than, say, a rocket. Plus, the damage radius'd be much smaller.

    As for the no-damage aspect : remember that when you use your alt-fire, all your ammo is consumed, thus rendering you unable to fire and change your weapon for a short while. That makes you more vulnerable for a bit. Plus, the risk of mis-aiming your "jump" is quite high. Combine that with the rather small splash damage strength and radius, and I'm not so sure it's such an unfair advantage.

    In any case, we'll only be able to be sure it works or doesn't when it's at least usable against bots, for now it's hard to tell. I feel (but might totally be wrong!) that it's more an issue of balance than weapon function.
    If it turns out my alt-fire isn't such a great idea, I kinda like that idea of using it to splash fuel around as Vailias said. Sort of like the Portal 2 paints, but flammable. And only ignite it at the best of times. I like the tactical potential of that.
    I'm less interested in a grenade type of projectile, it seems more common.
    The thing is, if you want to get up to something, you'll think "impact hammer" or "translocator", not "flamethrower". This jumping function seems to be both redundant and counter-intuitive. The alt fire could have more interesting effects than that.

    The reason I'm talking about grenades is not about the fact that they fly in an arc, it's about the different grenade types in Unreal II. Concussion grenades in Unreal II had pretty much exactly the effect you showed in the video, as in, it pushes away players. In Unreal II XMP it got much stronger than that and you can "concussion-jump" all around the map (but your view gets blanked for a short period of time, so it's dangerous). The gas/toxic grenade hurts players inside a rather large radius and the effect stays there for a while, so that's similar to Vailias' suggestion. I'm not sure about Portal 2 paints, but what you're saying sounds similar to how the Flamethrower worked in Unreal II, where you spray napalm around and choose the time to ignite it. Maybe I should make a video showing off the Unreal II Flamethrower, too, hmm...
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      #17
      If you consider that the main purpose is to jump, then yes, "flamethrower" isn't the first thing that comes to mind, I'll readily admit that. But neither does "grenade/rocket launcher" sound like a great idea, and yet...

      Thanks for the grenade launcher link, as I didn't play Unreal II I was unaware of its existence, and I researched only UT weapons. I also tried looking up the Unreal II flamethrower alt-fire in video form, but didn't find anything. If you make a video showing that in action, I'd love to see it, but then please don't feel like you have to do it solely on my account. In any case, this makes me understand better how you're looking at my proposition. (And I'll definitely catch up on those weapons later tonight.)

      If you try not to imagine it as a "jump" weapon but more as a "getaway" weapon, what do you think of the following scenario :

      Several players converge on your location, and you're about to get swamped. You switch to your "Dragon" gun, and lay a barrage of fire in front of you, confusing the incoming players and potentially damaging them. Taking advantage of being hidden behind a wall of fire, having bought yourself a little time by breaking the line of sight/fire, you use your alt-fire to get further away, maybe to some life or to a slightly out of reach location, thus allowing you to stay alive longer.

      (In retrospect maybe calling it "Flame-Jump" gun wasn't such a great idea. But then "Flame-Getaway" doesn't sound as good. )

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        #18
        I'll make a video first thing tomorrow morning, then. I don't mind at all, I'm just glad someone finds my videos useful Speaking of which, the Unreal II Laser Rifle alt fire is also fire-based, so perhaps that's another idea worth looking into: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-eLsPmOk
        Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
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          #19
          Right, here you go:



          It might be a bit hard to get what happened with the Mukhoggs at the end there, but they seemingly vanished due to actually getting gibbed. The napalm does so much damage that it chars things to dust

          Worth mentioning is that in Unreal II XMP they changed the alt fire a bit. There if an enemy tries crossing the napalm, it automatically ignites. Also, IIRC the individual napalm pools in XMP don't chain-ignite as quickly as they do in Unreal II.
          Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
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            #20
            Hey, sorry about the delay answering. Thanks a bunch for the video, I've watched it but haven't yet had the time to think about it. I'll let you know once I've been able to do so.

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              #21
              For jump weapon i think impact hammer would be better.

              Primary fire of flamethrower is just spammy weapon currently.
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                #22
                Sorry about the lack of updates, I've been swamped by work. And it might still be a while before I might be able to go back to that weapon, so I've decided to share it as it is. The functionality as player should be working as intended, but as another player watching you won't see the "cosmetic" aspect behave as it should.

                FlameJump.zip

                Inside the FlameJump and FlameJump_BurningFuel BPs, there are green debug boxes which you can use to make testing easier.

                Also, as this idea for a weapon had quite a lukewarm reception, I'll add a poll to the thread to help me decide whether or not it's worth continuing to work on it or move on to something else once I have some free time again.
                Last edited by FPSYX; 10-27-2014, 05:06 PM.

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                  #23
                  I like the mix of flame thrower and jump propulsion balls. For some, this combination might seem odd but still, UT was different from other arena shooters because of its unconventionality. I think that this weapon is very cool, the concept is awesome, so you should continue working on it. This is a new UT, so new unconventional weapons would be a mouth of fresh air.
                  Last edited by mahri726; 08-03-2014, 03:56 PM.

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                    #24
                    GreatEmerald, thank you again for the video, and apologies for having taken so much time to answer.

                    The napalm spray / flamethrower combination is indeed perfectly logical, and clearly very useful as a tactical tool.

                    However, it seems to me that UT weapons are at their most interesting when the main and alt fire have a maximum of contrast in function. That's why the shock rifle is one of the most iconic and interesting UT weapons, I think. (And of course combining both fire modes to get a 3rd result is the cherry on top!)

                    So that's why I find that combination of area damage / traversal tool in the same weapon more interesting than a fairly plain flamethrower or grenade launcher. (Not saying that those UII are uninspired - they clearly are quite original, esp. the grenade launcher - but I feel they lack this contrast of function that interests me.)


                    Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                    Right, here you go:



                    It might be a bit hard to get what happened with the Mukhoggs at the end there, but they seemingly vanished due to actually getting gibbed. The napalm does so much damage that it chars things to dust

                    Worth mentioning is that in Unreal II XMP they changed the alt fire a bit. There if an enemy tries crossing the napalm, it automatically ignites. Also, IIRC the individual napalm pools in XMP don't chain-ignite as quickly as they do in Unreal II.

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                      #25
                      Being spammy is not the problem (UT99 being spammy actually contributed to it being fun), from the video it looks like the primary fire is really slow and hence not very useful in a fast paced game - I could be wrong though. The secondary fire+jump looks fun and useful.
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                        #26
                        You might want to work on the flame effects a bit. Gas or short-range liquid-based flames have a short lifespan, so in order to achieve range, they must travel fast. Also they don't maintain a fixed size, but constantly grow while getting weaker. Larger flamethrowers pump the burning liquid with much more pressure and in larger quantities, so it doesn't burn up all at once, but the burning liquid can travel quite a distance before being used up. In that case, the liquid describes an arc, because it's gravity-affected, while the flames surround the stream of liquid and move upward.

                        Here's a video of a flame tank I created for UT2004. Notice how the flames appear much more dynamic simply because the particles travel much faster. You can probably consider it a pair of "spray-based" flames. (Originally I wanted a liquid-based flames look, but that turned out almost impossible to look right.)


                        And fore reference, here's a real flamethrower in action:
                        <elmuerte> you shouldn't do all-nighters, it's a waste of time and effort
                        <TNSe> nono
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                        <Pfhoenix> "Luke! I am your code!" "No! Impossible! It can't be!"
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                          from the video it looks like the primary fire is really slow and hence not very useful in a fast paced game
                          looks like a defensive weapon. could be interpreted as a smokegun alt-fire for impact hammer

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                            #28
                            If you do continue with this, adding some of the turbulence based particle effects (the ones that look like physx but are built into the engine) to the fire could potentially look great, if done subtly it could make it look less like floating 2d planes and more like dynamic fire

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                              #29
                              So, I worked on it a bit more, and changed the alt-fire. The idea is now that it behaves more like a rocket engine. Both main and alt are based on fuel expulsion, but nozzle-width/pressure changes depending on the type of fire mode you trigger.
                              That way it might be more coherent, while retaining that mix of area damage / traversal tool I wanted to bring with that weapon idea.
                              (The capsule ejection backward boost could still be a 3rd option, for instance if both left/right mouse button are pressed simultaneously.)

                              I did a fairly quick prototyping of it :



                              Possible uses :
                              1) Vertical "take off"
                              2) Arc movement
                              3) Arc movement over large gaps
                              4) "Bunny hopping"
                              5) Horizontal, on the ground (in the video it gives about the same velocity as normal running; if you are running, your speed would be further increased)
                              6) Avoid fall damage

                              + 1 extra clip with infinite fuel... because it's kinda fun to use

                              If you want to give it a try, here's the (really rough) prototype : FlameJumpV2.zip

                              That being said, I'll leave it at that. If anyone wants to pick it up, please feel free to do so. And thanks to everybody for the input.
                              Last edited by FPSYX; 10-27-2014, 05:07 PM.

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                                #30
                                It seems to have so many utilities now that it would be weird to not make it a standard starting tool for all players, because whoever gets the flame gun gets a giant movement advantage. I think something like that would be more appropriate as a power-up rather than a weapon function.
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