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    Also, I want to offer a suggestion.

    Right now the alt-fire can be guided via left-clicking, how about the alt-fire can be guided via keeping the right-click held down. Thus, if a player wants a blade to home-in, they need to hold down the alt-fire key and keep sight of the target. This fixes a ton of 'but Avril!' comments, because you would have to commit to the shot, keep the lock on the vehicle/player. If you want to shoot something else, you have to let go of the alt-fire and then the disk that was previously homing would just fly straight. It would be an awesome soft-fix to keep the 'reload speed' of the old Avril.

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      I dont know about the AVRIL replacement stuff but holding alt down for guided mode is what I've had in mind from the start of using it. I dont know about how everyone else uses it but generally speaking I tend to activate guided as soon as possible if I want to use it. Hold-release would work exactly how I want for the Ripper secondary to be on and off at my fingertips and solve the issue of confusing which disk is guided or not guided in fire modes. Not to mention that hold-secondary is a good way of balancing the guided mode out as you can't fire any more explosive disks while you are guiding the current one.

      Going to download this new one and check out the "mildy improved homing" maybe you're being modest and it's a huge step in getting rid of the buggy behavior. Glad that my playtesting feedback helped out in some ever mild improvements at a time. I appalogize in place of Epic for having them put you through Blueprint (UnrealScript) when you're at home in C++.

      By the way, is the Ripper AVRIL concept just on paper right now or do you actually have some sort of "vehicle" in UE4 to test it on? Just curious if you could set a box to be a theoretical "vehicle" for these functions like you did with the shock reflect box.
      Last edited by FirebornForm; 04-16-2015, 06:21 PM.

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        I think holding down right-click is a good move, it's also in-line with Avril which uses 2ndary fire to lock onto targets. Like FirebornForm said, it's natural to often wanna start guiding it since the very start and holding down the same button you fire would make that a possibility.
        Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 04-16-2015, 06:24 PM.

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          Tested it out, I haven't really noticed any changes on the guided bugs so far but I haven't gone through the whole bug checklist yet.

          I don't mean to be the bearer of badnews but this build introduces an entirely new bug. Endless rippers! The primary bounces never turn off, and can still damage people on it's infinite lifespan. Like in most early programming hashing out when you fix one thing another tends to break but maybe you just forgot to switch it to per-bounce lifespan? However a positive change is that I can confirm the infinite headshot blade is no longer, so it's a series of endless bouncing but less deadly disks. Bbut otherwise this truly is more "Revenge of the Ripper" from the depths of UTs ancient past ... you thought it was spammy before !? Well now you live with it constantly.

          In case you cant tell like before I was joking about revenge of the ripper as a return to noob-spam horrors but this build is a step in the right direction with headshots.
          Last edited by FirebornForm; 04-16-2015, 07:05 PM.

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            Wail, I finished the Ripjack low poly today, still need to do a a quick n dirty unwrap & process but I should be able to wrap it up in a couple of days.
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              Originally posted by YemYam View Post
              Wail, I finished the Ripjack low poly today, still need to do a a quick n dirty unwrap & process but I should be able to wrap it up in a couple of days.
              Awesome stuff, man! I'm a fan of the UC2 art style over the UT3 flavour, but I don't think either fits the UT15 style, but it will be a heck of a lot better than using a translocator!

              Thanks for supporting a community project like this! Big props to you and the Epic team!
              Last edited by KazeoHin-TechAE; 04-16-2015, 07:41 PM.

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                Originally posted by YemYam View Post
                Wail, I finished the Ripjack low poly today, still need to do a a quick n dirty unwrap & process but I should be able to wrap it up in a couple of days.
                Awesome, no rush, I have like 5 projects going on at work and at least as much to do at home.


                Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                Tested it out, I haven't really noticed any changes on the guided bugs so far but I haven't gone through the whole bug checklist yet.

                I don't mean to be the bearer of badnews but this build introduces an entirely new bug. Endless rippers! The primary bounces never turn off, and can still damage people on it's infinite lifespan. Like in most early programming hashing out when you fix one thing another tends to break but maybe you just forgot to switch it to per-bounce lifespan? However a positive change is that I can confirm the infinite headshot blade is no longer, so it's a series of endless bouncing but less deadly disks. Bbut otherwise this truly is more "Revenge of the Ripper" from the depths of UTs ancient past ... you thought it was spammy before !? Well now you live with it constantly.

                In case you cant tell like before I was joking about revenge of the ripper as a return to noob-spam horrors but this build is a step in the right direction with headshots.
                Yeah, I anticipated the lifespan changes might sometimes result in infinite lifespan blades. I'll fix that tonight when I get home.



                Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
                Also, I want to offer a suggestion.

                Right now the alt-fire can be guided via left-clicking, how about the alt-fire can be guided via keeping the right-click held down. Thus, if a player wants a blade to home-in, they need to hold down the alt-fire key and keep sight of the target. This fixes a ton of 'but Avril!' comments, because you would have to commit to the shot, keep the lock on the vehicle/player. If you want to shoot something else, you have to let go of the alt-fire and then the disk that was previously homing would just fly straight. It would be an awesome soft-fix to keep the 'reload speed' of the old Avril.
                I am open to trying this out but holding down the button means I'll have to enforce a minimum time until guidance occurs. Right now there is not one.
                As for committing / not committing: I think in practice the travel time of the projectiles serves as a built in limiter on rate of [damage output]. Couple that with the current behavior where only the last single disc will guide, and the current limitations are more substantial than the Avril's singular long reload (a factor obviated in practice with prefiring).



                Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                By the way, is the Ripper AVRIL concept just on paper right now or do you actually have some sort of "vehicle" in UE4 to test it on? Just curious if you could set a box to be a theoretical "vehicle" for these functions like you did with the shock reflect box.
                This is only an on paper concept currently since there are no vehicles yet. But you're right I can play around with this functionality by making a target dummy.
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                  Originally posted by Wail View Post
                  Awesome, no rush, I have like 5 projects going on at work and at least as much to do at home.




                  Yeah, I anticipated the lifespan changes might sometimes result in infinite lifespan blades. I'll fix that tonight when I get home.





                  I am open to trying this out but holding down the button means I'll have to enforce a minimum time until guidance occurs. Right now there is not one.
                  As for committing / not committing: I think in practice the travel time of the projectiles serves as a built in limiter on rate of [damage output]. Couple that with the current behavior where only the last single disc will guide, and the current limitations are more substantial than the Avril's singular long reload (a factor obviated in practice with prefiring).





                  This is only an on paper concept currently since there are no vehicles yet. But you're right I can play around with this functionality by making a target dummy.
                  With regards to the Hold-To-Home path, I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm thinking primarilly how awkward it is to use a two-mouse-button feature. I don't beleive in tutorials: if the game mechanics are so complicated that a casual gamer can't pick up the game and start playing, then the game should introduce scenarios wherein the player learns new features naturally, not having to read a wall-breaking text bubble. If the mechanic is more complicated than that, you should really reconsider the feature. My question is: how likely is a new player to stumble upon the homing ripper feature as it opperates now? As I see it: not likely. A Hold-to-home system would be much more natural feelin and a new player would probably stumble on it quite quickly.

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                    Another way of looking at it, like Pete said in the streams you could have the guided mode be secondary all the time and there is no unguided. Right now the guided or explosive mode is incredibly beneficial so much so that it's always the go-to mode if you want kills. With 60 dmg explosives and potential to guide them to targets that can rarely miss. One disk at a time as per secondary introduces a risk-reward to using it instead of just pure reward.

                    Though the Ripper was removed for reasons of cheap and lame corner kills from across the maps by n00bs I think we should also strongly consider that it was removed simply because it was incredibly unreliable to score kills that you want to happen. The changes to secondary make this new Ripper a real force to be reckoned with but I still feel like primary is just throwing the dice. This build with it's infinite bounces puts this in good perspective when I can walk through a complete storm of ripper blades and have a 50/50 chance to walk away no issue. The point made earlier about the rippers being a psychological deterrent is absolutely true, once I realize that the chances of a ripper bounce hitting me is 10 times less then I tend to just walk around real casually and ignore the "threat".

                    I was really surprised to see that the Ripper primary would be able to do 40 damage because by the time it actually hit's me with all of the bounces, it's like a light punch maybe 20 damage or less, nothing to worry about.
                    Last edited by FirebornForm; 04-16-2015, 08:22 PM.

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                      For kicks since this build will be dead by tonight.

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                        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                        For kicks since this build will be dead by tonight.
                        ~5:00 mark is quite glorious.


                        Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
                        With regards to the Hold-To-Home path, I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm thinking primarilly how awkward it is to use a two-mouse-button feature. I don't beleive in tutorials: if the game mechanics are so complicated that a casual gamer can't pick up the game and start playing, then the game should introduce scenarios wherein the player learns new features naturally, not having to read a wall-breaking text bubble. If the mechanic is more complicated than that, you should really reconsider the feature. My question is: how likely is a new player to stumble upon the homing ripper feature as it opperates now? As I see it: not likely. A Hold-to-home system would be much more natural feelin and a new player would probably stumble on it quite quickly.
                        I am 100% in favor of players being able to configure their controls on individual weapons in a way they like. I might even agree that for new players the hold-to-home mechanic might be more initially intuitive. But I wouldn't personally want to use it, because it's much more limiting than the system I'm using now. Not that the input can't be improved... I would be super happy if I could just use the Peripheral firemode code I wrote (with this mechanic in mind) rather than the current Multipress code, which results in sloppy controls.


                        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                        Another way of looking at it, like Sid said in the streams you could have the guided mode be secondary all the time and there is no unguided. Right now the guided or explosive mode is incredibly beneficial so much so that it's always the go-to mode if you want kills. With 60 dmg explosives and potential to guide them to targets that can rarely miss. One disk at a time as per secondary introduces a risk-reward to using it instead of just pure reward.
                        To me it's important to allow people to use the weapon in a way that's natural. Unreal Tournament is a fast paced game where you should be constantly looking around, assessing threats, doing 180s to respond to threats, and angling your view to navigate the level effectively with dodges, walldodges, etc. If there is no way to enable / disable the guidance mode then the limiting factor on the guidance is that you can't move effectively when using it. That is a really harsh limitation and seriously impedes normal gameplay. The only other thing in the game that has had such a serious limitation even considered on it was the Sniper Rifle headshot mechanic, and even that has been removed.

                        Consider this hypothetical scenario:

                        You are fighting a duel on some map. You are on the highest level of the map near an elevator shaft. You are on the backfoot and have the Ripper equipped. You want to shoot an explosive disc at the ground in your pursuer's general direction to dissuade his pursuit, while you drop down the elevator shaft to escape.

                        (1). With manually activated guidance: You shoot your shot, but decide not to activate guidance. Your shot goes where you aim it. If your enemy pursues you, he eats an explosive blade to the face. Since he doesn't want to, he backs off momentarily and you are able to escape safely down the elevator shaft.
                        (2). With always on guidance: You shoot your shot, and back down the elevator shaft. As you descend you are now aiming at a point lower than you initially fired, your shot curves into the ground prematurely and is ineffectual. Undeterred, your enemy continues to chase you down.
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                          I'm tempted to make more ripper videos but for now I'll leave it. :P

                          Your hypothetical situation is why I wanted the hold-activate, release-deactivate alt fires so it goes where I want all the time and it's easy to access at my fingers instead of juggling multi-clicks like in UT3 RL and I don't really use the multi-click Bio as much because of that. I've always prefered the UT99 RL function style and so it's not a surprise that I'd like something similar for the Ripper, but I've used spiral many times in UT99 and 2k so it's not so different.

                          What throws me off the most is your design to lock me out of being able to fire primary as it takes over as a laser dot. This is another hypothetical situation where I want to quickly switch from my secondary to decapitate someone but I can't because of the guided mode takes over my primary clicks, even if it's disabled by multi clicking it's still a delay I don't want to deal with. Consider the rocket launcher in that just because I fired a grenade doesn't mean I can't fire a rocket right after. So on and so forth for all of the other weapons, if I fired primary or secondary I can immediately switch to fire primary and vise versa.

                          I'm going to guess you feel like hold alt is more limiting because you might trick the opponent into turning a straight disk into a guided one at any point? Or that you would rather fly a disk over something and then guide it past, instead of having to control the guide the entire way. I'm just speculating here but I don't know what you personally want out of the guided feature.
                          Last edited by FirebornForm; 04-16-2015, 11:29 PM.

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                            Updated .pak download link. Primary blades now properly destroy themselves using lifespan reduction per bounce.

                            Updated uasset download for map authors.


                            MoxNix please let me know if you continue to experience errors using this in a level.

                            I'm going to attempt to set up my own simple map with the Ripper tomorrow, hopefully that will shed more light on the situation.





                            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                            What throws me off the most is your design to lock me out of being able to fire primary as it takes over as a laser dot. This is another hypothetical situation where I want to quickly switch from my secondary to decapitate someone but I can't because of the guided mode takes over my primary clicks, even if it's disabled by multi clicking it's still a delay I don't want to deal with. Consider the rocket launcher in that just because I fired a grenade doesn't mean I can't fire a rocket right after. So on and so forth for all of the other weapons, if I fired primary or secondary I can immediately switch to fire primary and vise versa.
                            Fundamentally this a problem with the current multipress implementation. The problem is multipress kicks in at any point during the actual mouseclick up until the refire time expires. I will see what I can do to improve this but I suspect I am at the mercy of waiting for Epic to add in feature requests here.


                            Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                            I'm going to guess you feel like hold alt is more limiting because you might trick the opponent into turning a straight disk into a guided one at any point? Or that you would rather fly a disk over something and then guide it past, instead of having to control the guide the entire way. I'm just speculating here but I don't know what you personally want out of the guided feature.
                            It's limiting because you should be able shoot it up, mark a target point, then be able to turn around and go on your merry way. I realize that the current implementation is not exactly ideal since the beam continues regardless of player input, but this is not intentional, just a side effect.
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                              An idea just throwing out there, though you will probably reject it. What if you only get one chance to redirect the disk. So as soon as you use the targeter then the disk would fly to it, it's guided but in a rudimentary state. Not as interesting or as fun as full on guiding, but much easier from a usability perspective and getting around the multi-click fires locking out the gun function (I think?). If you explored this option then I'd say increase the ROF of secondary to match up better.

                              Also worth potentially exploring a more limited timer on the guided mode, right now it's nigh unstoppable where I want it to go. Building in a cut off point means people have to be very deliberate with their guidance to make it count, instead of just being able to fly the ripper like a kite with no worries and it would also free up the gun from being able to fire again. As fun as the guidance mode is when it works I think it's potential is very powerful so ultimately this is about balance.

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                                Got it working now and released a new version of my map DM-Octagon for testing with Ripper in it.

                                https://ut.rushbase.net/MoxNix/DM-Oc...wsNoEditor.pak

                                I haven't tested it online but it works great in a local match. If it doesn't work online please let me know so I can remove the map download and let Wail know here in this thread so he can fix it.

                                I have to add the secondary fire guided mode is brilliant. It adds depth to the weapon with possibilities for skilled "trick" shots, corner shots, prediction shots, and should be a whole lot of fun!
                                Last edited by MoxNix; 04-17-2015, 09:21 PM.

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