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    #31
    Originally posted by Rhizy27 View Post
    To Wail:

    I would love to have this working. Are you keeping the idea that you were talking about in your post last month, with bouncing disks eventually losing headshot detection and dealing less damage? I actually think that's a really good idea, I think it'd work really well in this game. Honestly, nothing would make me happier than to see the Ripper come back, it was hands-down my favorite weapon in UT99.
    I'm not hugely attached to any particular implementation details. The code I have right now supports disabling headshots after a number of bounces, and supports damage and lifespan attenuation by number of bounces.

    Most of the objections to the Ripper I've heard have been about how it's frustrating to be randomly headshot by a stray Ripper blade, and I think turning off headshots after a bounce or two is one of the better ideas for minimizing that complaint. Also worth keeping in mind that headshots in this game as of right now are much tougher to score than in UT99. I think that those two changes really mitigate the frustration of random lucky headshots with this weapon.

    Damage and lifespan attenuation per bounce are in but not huge factors. Damage will drop down to 20 if a blade bounces enough, but each blade is still threatening enough to deny/discourage opponents from using certain spaces. I think that AoE denial is an important feature to preserve and most of the ideas that suggest reducing blades to 1 or 2 bounces maximum lose that essential characteristic of the weapon. I could also add in an OnHit delegate to specifically add in functionality to handle disabling bouncing after a set number of bounces, but I generally tend to think that reducing lifespan per bounce is the better way to handle this.
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      #32
      Originally posted by Wail View Post
      I'm not hugely attached to any particular implementation details. The code I have right now supports disabling headshots after a number of bounces, and supports damage and lifespan attenuation by number of bounces.

      Most of the objections to the Ripper I've heard have been about how it's frustrating to be randomly headshot by a stray Ripper blade, and I think turning off headshots after a bounce or two is one of the better ideas for minimizing that complaint. Also worth keeping in mind that headshots in this game as of right now are much tougher to score than in UT99. I think that those two changes really mitigate the frustration of random lucky headshots with this weapon.

      Damage and lifespan attenuation per bounce are in but not huge factors. Damage will drop down to 20 if a blade bounces enough, but each blade is still threatening enough to deny/discourage opponents from using certain spaces. I think that AoE denial is an important feature to preserve and most of the ideas that suggest reducing blades to 1 or 2 bounces maximum lose that essential characteristic of the weapon. I could also add in an OnHit delegate to specifically add in functionality to handle disabling bouncing after a set number of bounces, but I generally tend to think that reducing lifespan per bounce is the better way to handle this.
      I definitely think that's a good idea. I know that the developers in one of the livestreams were talking about their hesitation to add the Ripper back specifically because of the frustration of going against it, but they'd love an idea for the weapon that got rid of that. I think your idea can get rid of the random unintentional kills while also keeping the incredibly satisfying power fantasy decapitations for well-aimed shots with it, all while keeping the weapon in the role that it fits. Honestly, bravo, my friend. I hope Epic puts this in, I really do.

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        #33
        Originally posted by Mysterial View Post
        To be clear, we haven't officially said either yes or no, only that we want to start off getting all the weapons that were in UT3 to be in a good state before deciding if we want to expand the standard arsenal.
        good night ut

        there still is no areal damage weapon that does low dmg to many players (like bio gas idea)
        there is no counterpart to the shock combo idea
        there is no weapon with hard delay like the bio that actually works out
        there is no weapon to slow down opponents
        there is no weapon to poison them
        there is no chaining damage weapon when multiple enemies occur
        there is no radial weapon damaging a radius around you
        there is no way to make a weapon obsolete by choosing its counterpart

        there is nothing impressive about the weapon arsenal anymore.

        have to go now

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          #34
          Lets not thread hijack with generalized complaints about the arsenal.
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            #35
            Created a new topic Ripper changes https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...102#post106102
            Last edited by Andriushka; 09-11-2014, 01:05 PM.

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              #36
              Why is this not ingame yet

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                #37
                Originally posted by ChA1NsAw View Post
                Why is this not ingame yet
                Might not be part of the core weapon set, which is understandable, since it's a controversial weapon and every weapon needs art / audio to support it. I'd really like to see some people doing some more work on concepting the visuals for a Ripper, the UT3 translocator isn't bad but I'm sure we can do better.
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                  #38
                  Hey Wail great job so far, I really missed the Ripper in UT since UT99. It's a really unique and fun weapon to have and have to deal with. Nothing quite sets off a sort of panic with a room full of Ripper blades!

                  It's been controversial and spammy since you can stand in place and get kills on spawns or firing down corridors endlessly but I think new generation balancing like what you've done here with lowering damage and disabling headshots after so many bounces (lore wise it's like the blade gets duller every bounce perfectly logical).

                  Here's something to try out, the Ripper has been controversial because it's also hard to see coming until you die. While I probably wouldn't make it a bright glowing beacon how about exploring some particle effects.? Each time it bounces off a surface it creates a spark. Seeing sparks flying would let the player know there's something dangerous going on (ripper blades). Of course this might end up too confusing (sparks everywhere!!) and just end up more OP because of the confusion it causes. Of course that would also make it a pretty unique weapon, I don't think any other gun in UT has ever caused confusion.

                  Another thing to try out. I also think that giving the ripper a remote detonation alt fire would set it apart from the redundancy of just being a weaker rocket. It might be worth checking out some of the original Razorjack's functionality. People are requesting rockets to home in on the cross-hair but that was a Razorjack thing first!, maybe you can combine the two functions?
                  1. LC = Fires ricochet blade (is not steerable) (can headshot) (can not be detonated) (can bounces off surfaces)
                  2. RC = Fires laser guided explosive blade. (is steerable) (can not headshot) (can be detonated) (can not bounce off surfaces)

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                    Here's something to try out, the Ripper has been controversial because it's also hard to see coming until you die. While I probably wouldn't make it a bright glowing beacon how about exploring some particle effects.? Each time it bounces off a surface it creates a spark. Seeing sparks flying would let the player know there's something dangerous going on (ripper blades). Of course this might end up too confusing (sparks everywhere!!) and just end up more OP because of the confusion it causes. Of course that would also make it a pretty unique weapon, I don't think any other gun in UT has ever caused confusion.
                    I'd love to create some better visual effects but the time I'd spend learning how to do so is probably better spent on other things, so graphics haven't been my priority. I'd be happy to incorporate improved visuals if someone else were looking to collaborate to bring this to the next level.


                    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                    Another thing to try out. I also think that giving the ripper a remote detonation alt fire would set it apart from the redundancy of just being a weaker rocket. It might be worth checking out some of the original Razorjack's functionality. People are requesting rockets to home in on the cross-hair but that was a Razorjack thing first!, maybe you can combine the two functions?
                    Remote detonation is in currently. I purposefully didn't do guided blades for the secondary as I think it's a bit of a weird thing to have unless it has a dedicated way to activate it. Always-on guidance means that if you shoot suppressive explosive discs at a corner, then you need to keep your crosshair on that point for your shots to hit -- That's kind of against how I play in UT, where I'll often just shoot where I think my opponent is going to be, then go run off in some other direction to grab more stuff. So it doesn't feel right to have always-on guidance to me, unless it's very specific to that mode (and explosive blades have merit beyond the guided functionality, so I want to preserve that standalone merit).

                    One option I'm thinking of is using the multipress to trigger the projectile-in-flight control so turning around doesn't cause your shots to go careening off unless you purposefully want them to.
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                      #40
                      Understandable about focusing on the function rather than the FX. Game design and particle artists are two different jobs.

                      How about this then? I never liked the rocket having weird firing switches. If any weapon should have tertiary swapping like the rocket currently has I think it should be the Ripper. The ripper has always gotten a kind of "this is OP or useless" reputation, so it needs more functionality. What you've done with headshot detection is nerf the Ripper from super cheap kills but it still needs something else than what it's got in the past.

                      LC = Fires normal ricochet blades (ricochets off surfaces and can head shot
                      RC = Switch blade modes (special blades do not ricochet but instead stick into surfaces like a baterang).

                      Switch explosive mode via LC+RCtap or RC+LC tap?
                      Basically how rockets switch modes between Spread, Spiral, Grenade modes.
                      1. (Non Explosive) Spinning blade of death, ricochet
                      2. (Explosive) Remote blade
                      3. (Explosive) Timed blade
                      4. (Explosive) Proxy blade


                      This is a similar idea to what people have been suggesting like a whole case of rippers detonating but... i think that would just bring back more hate for the Ripper being ultra spammy as a room gets filled with blades after a ripper-pack trap goes off. This way it's still contained and balanced. Here's some options to play with. Limiting the number of trap blades out at one time, similar to how shock balls are limited right now to reduce explosive blade spam and rigging an area to blow with proxy blades. Of course thats part of the fun of havingthem so you can try no limiter as well. There's also the option of keeping it remote detonate-able only while in the air, once it hits a surface/player then it auto explodes just like in UT99.

                      One more thing to note, you don't like laser guided as the only option and that's a personal choice but if you wanted you could make laser guided a mode switch once you decide which functions you like to play with the gun having IE normal, remote, timed, proxy, guided.

                      Such as
                      Mode1= Normal
                      Mode2= Remote detonation (or whatever blade mine you choose) (does not explode on impact, sticks into surface)
                      Mode3= Guided (can not be remotely detonated, explodes on impact)

                      This way it still requires some skill to use the guided blades instead of being too easy, and you have enough predictablity to use another mode to get results you want without guided blades. Every time there's a guided rocket in a game, you still have to hit them with the explosion where they are/land just like normal splash damage, being able to cut them off in the air remote controlled and guided would probably be too over powered.
                      Last edited by FirebornForm; 10-14-2014, 12:16 AM.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                        This is a similar idea to what people have been suggesting like a whole case of rippers detonating but... i think that would just bring back more hate for the Ripper being ultra spammy as a room gets filled with blades after a ripper-pack trap goes off. This way it's still contained and balanced. Here's some options to play with. Limiting the number of trap blades out at one time, similar to how shock balls are limited right now to reduce explosive blade spam and rigging an area to blow with proxy blades. Of course thats part of the fun of havingthem so you can try no limiter as well. There's also the option of keeping it remote detonate-able only while in the air, once it hits a surface/player then it auto explodes just like in UT99.

                        One more thing to note, you don't like laser guided as the only option and that's a personal choice but if you wanted you could make laser guided a mode switch once you decide which functions you like to play with the gun having IE normal, remote, timed, proxy, guided.

                        Personally I feel like spam is part of the character of the weapon. The Ripper in my mind is an AOE denial tool, much like the Bio Rifle can be, but it takes on a different character. Laying down mines is more Bio Rifle or Grenade Launcher or Mine Layer territory in my mind.

                        And yeah, if I try out guided blades the remote detonation feature will go. I really want to focus on keeping inputs to only primary fire and alt fire, and there's only so much that can be done there.
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                          #42
                          I like what you're doing, the Ripper was definetly favourite for me. Explosive blades are a bit awkward to talk about because you gotta decide whether its a grenade type of thing or shrapnel, how it moves (I think the secondary fire in 99 was slower?) etc So im expecting a lot of discussion here.

                          Personally I like the idea of them sticking like FirebornForm said with a limit similiar to the spider mines in UT. Maybe have a maximum of 3 or 2 that could deal 100 damage in an ideal scenario. This balances gameplay as they can be utilized as a trapping system but still be ineffective against prepared players.

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                            #43
                            To reduce the frustration of the head shotted player, maybe a restriction on angle is useful: head shots would only count if the projectile came from direction the player is looking. That way the player always sees the projectile thats head shotting him. A less strict rule would be to only allow head shots on shallow angles, so head shots from the side or behind (but not from top or bottom) would still count.

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                              #44
                              I don't like any such rules like you suggested Primius. I can see that easily being incredibly frustrating and also exploitable. Someone fired a ripper at you? Just turn so you're not facing it and you're garunteed no head shot, or turn around and go backwards down a hallway while someone spams rippers trying to get headshots. Wail says that the headshots are a lot more precise in his prototype and I believe that, UT99 was very primitive so headshots often mean't just the upper area of the body.

                              Also yes, Kyle you're correct The Ripper in UT99 secondary fire was slower moving blades AND slower fire rate. I don't think the explosive blades were ever an issue of being OP in UT99, rather they got the short end of the stick being called an inferior rocket. What needed balancing was bringing down the primary fire's dominative headshots for sitting around. Now that's out of the way so we focus on making the Ripper less of a useless piece of garbage in your inventory and be able to put up more of a fight. Detonating a blade in someones face if they try to dodge it will definitely help that but I still think it's not enough. Weapon balance is a tricky thing to work on right now because pretty much no weapon is balanced and many of them are horribly imbalanced.

                              Tossing another idea onto the Ripper for detonation. Multi-detonation. RC fires as many explosive blades as you feel like it out, RC held down rolled to LC detonates the blades (All of them currently in the area in the air or in surfaces).

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                                Also yes, Kyle you're correct The Ripper in UT99 secondary fire was slower moving blades AND slower fire rate. I don't think the explosive blades were ever an issue of being OP in UT99, rather they got the short end of the stick being called an inferior rocket. What needed balancing was bringing down the primary fire's dominative headshots for sitting around. Now that's out of the way so we focus on making the Ripper less of a useless piece of garbage in your inventory and be able to put up more of a fight. Detonating a blade in someones face if they try to dodge it will definitely help that but I still think it's not enough. Weapon balance is a tricky thing to work on right now because pretty much no weapon is balanced and many of them are horribly imbalanced.

                                Tossing another idea onto the Ripper for detonation. Multi-detonation. RC fires as many explosive blades as you feel like it out, RC held down rolled to LC detonates the blades (All of them currently in the area in the air or in surfaces).
                                Maybe add a movement penalty with the secondary fire so that if you catch someone with it and youre quick enough you can follow up headshot? Thatd be cool. Would be fairly balanced too as you would have to either hit them or hit very near them to apply it.

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