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    #16
    So, I finally downloaded the game and started playing it myself, and the one thing I am most displeased with is the enforcer.
    The three-round burst is extremely unpleasant and dissatisfying. It was a worthless feature in UT3 and it feels even worse here.

    This is the starting weapon. As such, it is one of the most critical weapons int he entire game. If it is too powerful then there is little point to getting other weapons. But if it is too weak, then the player starts off extremely disadvantaged. Realistically, the starting weapon needs to useful; you NEED to be able to take down a more armed opponent if you can manage a tactical advantage outside of the weaponry. If the starting weapon is too weak, you feel disadvantaged to spawn, you feel weak, and if someone kills you before you can pick up another weapon, you feel cheated. You need a starting weapon that makes you feel like you have a fair chance to hold your own for at least long enough to get a better weapon. More than any other weapon in the game, your starting weapon needs to feel fair.

    Look, in the original UT it had a simple trade-off that made sense and presented it as a multi-functional tool. Did I want more accuracy, or did I want more firing speed? There were situations where one was more desirable than the other. The enforcer was powerful, and while the other weapons were stronger, you never felt helpless with the enforcer. You could handle yourself with the enforcer.
    It UT2 it was replaced with an assault rifle with a grenade launcher. Honestly, it didn't feel quite as powerful, but it was still functional and useful. The grenades were extremely useful to help you take down a more powerful foe. They were wisely traded off with a limited supply. But they made a huge difference because with a little skill and a lot of luck you could survive with them just long enough to get a better weapon. And the normal fire was proportionately useful as a starting weapon.

    But this three-round burst fails to offer a tactical alternative to the normal fire. With that huge wait time between shots, if the burst doesn't kill your opponent, you are toast. You don't have a chance to do anything else before you get hit with a flak round or whatever your opponent is packing. So how can you use that tactically? Well it's great to finish off an opponent quickly if they are low on health. This would make a lot of sense, except that you have no true way to know your opponent's health. It's a complete mystery. They could have just barely survived a rocket launcher to the face, or they could have just picked up some armor. There is no way to know if the burst will finish them off, and if it doesn't you are wide open for more than enough time for them to finish you off.
    This make the tactical option of the alt-fire completely useless. It's one advantage is 100% a **** shoot. You could honestly replace it with a gun that deals a random amount of damage and it would have the same effect.

    So what should the alt-fire do instead?
    My first thought is to hearken back what the original enforcer did. Offer the player a choice between fire rate and accuracy. You could just repeat the same pattern from the original, with alt fire firing faster and less-accurately, but I think this is counter-intuitive. The player will naturally want the faster fire rate in more situations than they will want the accuracy, so swap the two functions around. Make the normal fire faster and less accurate, and then the alt-fire steadies the weapon with the free hand for better accuracy. I'm thinking it might work best like how Call of Duty uses its "aim down the sight" mechanic; you hold the alt-fire button down and the weapon centers and the view zooms in slightly, and you actually fire with the normal fire button. (It might be worth it to slightly increase the shot's damage as well as accuracy. If you have double enforces, then the alt fire fires one gun and the normal fire fires the other.
    Or just, have alt-fire fire slower and be accurate across long distances. Plain and simple.

    Another thought is to make the alt-fire charge a more powerful shot. This seems more conducive to use a dispersion pistol than an enforcer, (but honestly with that curved top that is what it feels like I am using.) But I suppose you could still keep it enforcer-like by having it load extra rounds that are fired all at once, like the rocket launcher does (but faster, and without having it automatically discharge.) Normal fire is a somewhat rapid-fire attack, and the alt fire charges an attack that you fire when you release the button. This would be a profoundly more useful tactical alternative to the three round burst. Effectively you could lead with the three round burst and then use the normal fire to try to finish someone off.
    This would achieve the most important goal of a starting weapon: it would keep the player from feeling cheated if they were killed before they picked up a better weapon. They could charge that weapon, and if they cross paths with a more armed opponent, even if they still lose, they know its because they missed their shot, not that they never had a shot.
    Last edited by Marscaleb; 02-09-2015, 10:38 PM.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Marscaleb View Post
      So what should the alt-fire do instead?

      What about this, lol.





      Primary is the large bullet, but slower, secondary the smaller bullet, but automatic.

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        #18
        Alt fire should do what it did in UT99 point it sideways with increased fire rate at the expense of aim
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          #19
          Originally posted by Psychomorph View Post
          What about this, lol.
          Primary is the large bullet, but slower, secondary the smaller bullet, but automatic.

          To be honest I don't see why a second barrel is specifically needed. There's ample precedent for saying the weapon can fire a different (slower, more powerful) round. As I mentioned above, the Judge Dredd Lawgiver fires all kinds of different ammunition types, including 'high-explosive' rounds.

          Edit: Also please try to at least watch the videos of the concepts I made. I don't mind discussing the overall approach for handling the Enforcer, and I will be happy to try out other suggestions if I think they're good, but tell me why you think your idea is better than any of the ones I've shown.
          Last edited by Wail; 02-10-2015, 09:13 AM.
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            #20
            Originally posted by code187 View Post
            Alt fire should do what it did in UT99 point it sideways with increased fire rate at the expense of aim
            Yeah, but you need the accuracy far less often than the fire rate, so I would swap those two modes.

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              #21
              Iteration 1 posted above is a wonderful and elegant solution, bringing everything the starting weapons have succeeded with into one package (standard fire, rapid fire/ not accurate, and alt projectile from 2k4).

              I really love the alternate projectile honestly. The problem with the alternate projectile is that there are so many great ideas for alt projectiles. So, here's my idea:
              Give players an easily accessible option, such as a clickable on the tab menu, or maybe a toggle fire mode button, that will switch between alt-projectile types.

              Right click, fire rocket. Press x, right click again, fire a shotgun blast, press x again, next fire mode is a grenade (hold alt-fire to charge range), press x again, idk, maybe a flare you can shoot into a room to over brighten it and bling/glare an enclosed area? All alternate ammo would draw from the same alt ammo pool, which would be limited, like 3-6 or something.

              Picking up a second pistol would remove alt ammo ability. Also with two pistols you only fire inaccurate "killshot" grip. Then pressing the change alt fire type button would drop your second pistol, going back to one for more tacticalness.

              What do you think of that? Complex, but not too much so. Powerful and flexible, but not so much that most people would forgo the flack cannon for it. I would. But most wouldn't.

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                #22
                Originally posted by maceria View Post
                Iteration 1 posted above is a wonderful and elegant solution, bringing everything the starting weapons have succeeded with into one package (standard fire, rapid fire/ not accurate, and alt projectile from 2k4).
                Thanks maceria, I feel the same way.


                Originally posted by maceria View Post
                I really love the alternate projectile honestly. The problem with the alternate projectile is that there are so many great ideas for alt projectiles. So, here's my idea:
                Give players an easily accessible option, such as a clickable on the tab menu, or maybe a toggle fire mode button, that will switch between alt-projectile types.

                Right click, fire rocket. Press x, right click again, fire a shotgun blast, press x again, next fire mode is a grenade (hold alt-fire to charge range), press x again, idk, maybe a flare you can shoot into a room to over brighten it and bling/glare an enclosed area? All alternate ammo would draw from the same alt ammo pool, which would be limited, like 3-6 or something.

                Picking up a second pistol would remove alt ammo ability. Also with two pistols you only fire inaccurate "killshot" grip. Then pressing the change alt fire type button would drop your second pistol, going back to one for more tacticalness.

                What do you think of that? Complex, but not too much so. Powerful and flexible, but not so much that most people would forgo the flack cannon for it. I would. But most wouldn't.

                I've had some similar thoughts myself. It seems like there's a number of potentially valid options for how the alt-fire should work. Personally I feel like it would be neat if players should be given some level of customization over what sort of alt-fire they can utilize, but simultaneously I'd prefer to just make one and keep it simple. Given the complexity of the Enforcer as it is, I am a little wary of adding more with the idea of rotating firemodes. I'm not really opposed to it, but overall that might be more suitable for mods or Singleplayer than UT.
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                  #23
                  Excuse me, but could anyone tell me why we spawn with 20 ammo in UT4? In UT3 we had 50, and in UT99, as far as i remember, 40. Was that too much or what? The low amount of ammo also takes away the fun of dual wielding, and dual wielding was one of the reason I enjoyed previous games so much.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by CzajnikGrozy View Post
                    Excuse me, but could anyone tell me why we spawn with 20 ammo in UT4? In UT3 we had 50, and in UT99, as far as i remember, 40. Was that too much or what? The low amount of ammo also takes away the fun of dual wielding, and dual wielding was one of the reason I enjoyed previous games so much.
                    This belongs in a different thread. Ammo counts for basically every weapon have been reduced a lot. I agree it's an issue, particularly with the Enforcer, which has some of the lowest starting ammo and has no ammo pickups available on the maps, but that is an overall balancing discussion not one for a thread designed to brainstorm better functionality for the weapon as a whole.
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                      #25
                      It's been awhile since I revisited this, so I wanted to make a new video demonstrating some ideas I had on this front. First post is also updated


                      Iteration 1A



                      This iteration demonstrates a couple of concepts that might be useful ideas to incorporate into the Enforcer.

                      Primary Fire: Armor-piercing high caliber rounds. These bullets deliver a hefty 20 damage per shot, with 50% of that damage piercing armor to remain relevant even for the most down-and-out player.*
                      Alternate Fire: This weapon can hold up to 4 high-explosive mini-grenades. Holding the trigger charges the grenade launching mechanism to launch the grenades further distance.
                      HUD Enhancements : This weapon indicates a spread indicator for bullet-fire. In addition, it also has a visual indicator for the number of current grenades (white) out of total grenades (red), and a charging bar indicating the state of the current grenade launcher charge.


                      * Armor Piercing completely ignores armor. This means that a player with 150 armor (Shield Belt) and 100 Health will die in 10 bullets (10 damage absorbed by armor, so 10 health damage per bullet). A fresh spawn will die in 5 bullets (20 health damage per bullet). To me this is a great equalizer for a starting weapon, without turning it into a weapon that you'll want to rely on above the other guns in the arsenal.
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                        #26
                        I do like the idea of armor piercing but 5/10 shots is just way too much to be useful in any situation ever at that ROF. If I'm reading the video right, you basically have to fire at a revolver rate or you have terribly inaccurate shots. Yet the damage is not balanced, for a revolver ROF you get a light pistol dmg. Enforcer is already a useless gun, I don't think it needed a huge nerf like that. :\

                        I find the HUD enhancements to be a distraction but it could be tweaked to work with a better actual crosshair instead of a big circle on top of the crosshair.
                        Grenades are way too heavy with no bouncing at all in my opinion, a definite downgrade to the 2k4 styled launch.
                        Last edited by FirebornForm; 03-20-2015, 06:01 AM.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                          I do like the idea of armor piercing but 5/10 shots is just way too much to be useful in any situation ever at that ROF. If I'm reading the video right, you basically have to fire at a revolver rate or you have terribly inaccurate shots. Yet the damage is not balanced, for a revolver ROF you get a light pistol dmg. Enforcer is already a useless gun, I don't think it needed a huge nerf like that. :\
                          I'm firing slowly so the shots are easy to count and don't spread too much.
                          Right now the Enforcer does 22 (?) damage per shot, with no armor piercing mechanic. Precise numbers aren't that important. The meaningful proposal here is adding armor piercing to the mechanics of the weapon, which doesn't impact the utility of the weapon on fresh spawns, but dramatically impacts the utility of the weapon against people who are running around with the shield belt. Assuming 200 Armor and 100 health, you're looking at 13 shots to take down such a person, where adding 50% armor piercing trims off 3 shots on the max end. It's all easily tweakable in the blueprint numerically.

                          Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                          IGrenades are way too heavy with no bouncing at all in my opinion, a definite downgrade to the 2k4 styled launch.
                          Way to nitpick. Really not concerned with getting the proper arc or bounce behavior on them yet, just demonstrating all of that functionality (limited separate ammo pool, charge display, variable velocity) working together.

                          Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                          I find the HUD enhancements to be a distraction but it could be tweaked to work with a better actual crosshair instead of a big circle on top of the crosshair.
                          It's obviously not an art pass.
                          Last edited by Wail; 03-20-2015, 09:13 AM.
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                            #28
                            I like the grenades idea, always enjoyed the challenge of getting kills with them in 2k4, as obviously I didn't bother with primary tickle mode.
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                              #29
                              Well if you fired extremely slowly to show a count of shots then the question remains. How fast can you fire and remain accurate? All I can do is comment on what I see since I can't actually use the gun. I like 2k4's style of secondary but I really question how much it's going to be worthwhile for UT4. If you only get a few of them how much damage does one of them do? You only fired it at a wall instead of a dummy.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                                Well if you fired extremely slowly to show a count of shots then the question remains. How fast can you fire and remain accurate? All I can do is comment on what I see since I can't actually use the gun. I like 2k4's style of secondary but I really question how much it's going to be worthwhile for UT4. If you only get a few of them how much damage does one of them do? You only fired it at a wall instead of a dummy.
                                The spread properties are identical to the Enforcer as presented. It's just giving visual feedback of how the spread works on the Enforcer (which I think is important to communicate since many people don't know that if you control your rate of fire you can get a tighter spread).

                                I didn't bother specifying every value since there is no point in theorycrafting on specific numbers at this stage. Ballpark 60-80 damage on a direct hit, depending on other factors (speed, max and default number of grenades, etc).
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