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    Lag compensation?

    Hello. I wanted to talk about whether this game should or should not have lag compensation, not so much about what it is but if it should exist in UT4. Personally I think it should do something like BF4/Planetside where projectiles aren't delayed by the server. I'm aware of the tradeoffs this could have on dodging/ invisibile shock combos, but I think it would generally have a positive impact on the casual player base of arena shooters atleast, especially in the Asia region. There is some lag comp currently, but I think more wouldn't hurt to expand the playerbase a little.

    I also can't imagine an FPS getting popular without any form of lag comp, any FPS which has a respectable playerbase these days have some form of lag compensation one way or another. And those without lag comp are all dead, I can't think of any FPS that isn't struggling that uses server side projectiles/hitscans.

    I saw a post which talks about it hurting the competitive scene but I can't imagine a low playerbase having a positive impact on the competitive scene. Any real competitions are handled locally anyway, where lag compensation methods wouldn't even matter.

    Thoughts?

    #2
    Uhhh.. there IS already ping compensation in the game, both for projectile and hitscan weapons. You can't add "more" lag compensation, unless you mean to allow it to work at higher pings? Right now I think it's limited to 120ms (was 160ms before), and I think it should be raised back up to 160ms.

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      #3
      Yea, I know there is lag compensation, but I think it should be increased maybe for up to 300ms at least.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
        Yea, I know there is lag compensation, but I think it should be increased maybe for up to 300ms at least.
        Ah okay, I would not mind that.. if only the prediction part of the netcode is allowed to compensate for the really high pings. If we allow serverside time rewind to compensate for more ping, then projectiles will be really hard to dodge from players with a high ping, and that just totally ruins gameplay.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
          Ah okay, I would not mind that.. if only the prediction part of the netcode is allowed to compensate for the really high pings. If we allow serverside time rewind to compensate for more ping, then projectiles will be really hard to dodge from players with a high ping, and that just totally ruins gameplay.
          What is the difference between the prediction vs the serverside time rewind? Do you have examples?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
            What is the difference between the prediction vs the serverside time rewind? Do you have examples?
            Ping prediction basically extrapolates the positions of other players depending on their speed and which direction they're going in, as well as your ping. This lets the shooter see players closer to where they actually appear on the server. It does not cause projectiles to be harder to dodge. Serverside time rewind moves back the hitboxes of the players temporarily on the server to where the shooter saw them when they fired, and this causes you to sometimes take damage from projectiles that you seemingly dodged on your screen.

            The current netcode uses both of these techniques in combination, but if the upper ping compensation limit is to be increased I say we should only allow that extra ping to be compensated by ping prediction.

            Comment


              #7
              Lag compensation is really a balance between aiding and negatively affecting network experience for others. The higher lag compensation the more "fair" we theoretically should get yea but in theory the more difficult to achieve a seamless experience to avoid seeing noticeable projectile skipping or experiences such as on your screen it might have hit but on the server it doesn't etc. and what happens on your screen might not be in sync with the server and it also causes higher load on the server since it will have more processing to do.

              For me 160 ms ping was a good upper limit because it's roughly thereabouts europeans playing on US servers or vice versa will have. IMO it was very refreshing as an european to be able to play on US servers without getting a very big impact in your fragging ability. In this build I noticed a much worsened experience there so that I stopped visiting US servers after 1 try and before I jumped quite often onto a US server because the 160 ping prediction let me have a very decent experience. Now if this only due to the change from 160 ms to 120 ms I'm not sure but I want devs to think twice before removing the ability of europeans and americans playing with each other casually. There has to be very drastic beneficial impact on <120 ms prediction system for it to be worth hurting this ability because:

              - The larger playerbase will connect to each other the longer lifespan the game will have
              - The more "online friends" you will meet
              - Generally will meet new communities, say instagib specific communities, VCTF etc
              - Obviously more options as there's more hubs to choose among

              I want to see really strong arguments and RESULTS of improvement to overall netcode experience before I'm buying 160 ms -> 120 ms is a great move. Now this build happen to be a bit of a recession to netcode so it's not particularly good build to base the results on so will have to be a bit patient here but I'm just trying to defend my ability to get a good public play experience across the ocean because it was such a refreshing thing to be able to do which you never opted for in the past due to drastic disadvantages taking place.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
                Ping prediction basically extrapolates the positions of other players depending on their speed and which direction they're going in, as well as your ping. This lets the shooter see players closer to where they actually appear on the server. It does not cause projectiles to be harder to dodge. Serverside time rewind moves back the hitboxes of the players temporarily on the server to where the shooter saw them when they fired, and this causes you to sometimes take damage from projectiles that you seemingly dodged on your screen.

                The current netcode uses both of these techniques in combination, but if the upper ping compensation limit is to be increased I say we should only allow that extra ping to be compensated by ping prediction.
                I think I get it. I don't see much benefit from prediction then, as the rewind compensation is the thing that makes the game even remotely playable for high pingers. There aren't alot of Asian/Oce servers, so the only alternative for me is just to not play the game. If the rewind compensation is higher at least pingers can still play, even though they can't dodge projectiles, the shooting or instagib servers still feel playable.

                Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
                Lag compensation is really a balance between aiding and negatively affecting network experience for others. The higher lag compensation the more "fair" we theoretically should get yea but in theory the more difficult to achieve a seamless experience to avoid seeing noticeable projectile skipping or experiences such as on your screen it might have hit but on the server it doesn't etc. and what happens on your screen might not be in sync with the server and it also causes higher load on the server since it will have more processing to do.

                For me 160 ms ping was a good upper limit because it's roughly thereabouts europeans playing on US servers or vice versa will have. IMO it was very refreshing as an european to be able to play on US servers without getting a very big impact in your fragging ability. In this build I noticed a much worsened experience there so that I stopped visiting US servers after 1 try and before I jumped quite often onto a US server because the 160 ping prediction let me have a very decent experience. Now if this only due to the change from 160 ms to 120 ms I'm not sure but I want devs to think twice before removing the ability of europeans and americans playing with each other casually. There has to be very drastic beneficial impact on <120 ms prediction system for it to be worth hurting this ability because:

                - The larger playerbase will connect to each other the longer lifespan the game will have
                - The more "online friends" you will meet
                - Generally will meet new communities, say instagib specific communities, VCTF etc
                - Obviously more options as there's more hubs to choose among

                I want to see really strong arguments and RESULTS of improvement to overall netcode experience before I'm buying 160 ms -> 120 ms is a great move. Now this build happen to be a bit of a recession to netcode so it's not particularly good build to base the results on so will have to be a bit patient here but I'm just trying to defend my ability to get a good public play experience across the ocean because it was such a refreshing thing to be able to do which you never opted for in the past due to drastic disadvantages taking place.
                I think high ping compensation will generally have a positive impact though especially this early in the development cycle. More people would be willing to play, and eventually more people will host their own servers, solving the initial problem to begin with. Right now pingers are super turned off by games like this and super turned on by games with generous compensation like BF4 and CSGO, Halo, COD.

                If the game has high ping compensation, the experience sucks for both players (high ping and low ping) sometimes. If there is low ping compensation or none at all, high ping won't even touch this game, and low ping players will be lonely and wonder why no one is in their server. : D

                Comment


                  #9
                  I haven't played UT4 for about a year or so. So I started playing after net prediction was added recently and it is better in general.

                  Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                  Dropping to 120ms makes it hard to play for me.

                  The closets server I have is Sydney and that varies from 80-150 depending on time of day and player count.
                  I personally would like to see it higher as there is no way I can really be playing against anyone outside of Australia at the moment.

                  The local internet infrastructure here is terrible. I get 300-400 playing on US or European servers.

                  I want to play on servers against real people, so I am playing on these servers and training myself to lead my shots. Feels like the days of dialup

                  I do realise the issues of adding a larger lag compensation, as mentioned above, can be detrimental to other players as you might die from a shot that doesn't register on your screen.

                  The joke was that I should just move house or maybe even country so that I could have a better connection :P
                  Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                    I haven't played UT4 for about a year or so. So I started playing after net prediction was added recently and it is better in general.
                    Prediction has been there from start. Best working prediction was before this latest build, possibly a few builds before that it was slightly bit better too. But in general it has worked "decently" until this build except one or two exceptional builds.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
                      I think I get it. I don't see much benefit from prediction then, as the rewind compensation is the thing that makes the game even remotely playable for high pingers. There aren't alot of Asian/Oce servers, so the only alternative for me is just to not play the game. If the rewind compensation is higher at least pingers can still play, even though they can't dodge projectiles, the shooting or instagib servers still feel playable.
                      Well, then you don't get it :P Prediction is still much better than having no compensation for higher pingers. I know a game that has prediction only (no time rewind) and people could play it sorta-competitively with 300 ping.

                      Having all of your 300 ping compensated by time rewind is a terrible idea, just look at UT99 NewNet. It had no ping limit AFAIK (or maybe something really large like 500ms) and if a 300 pinger who knew how to abuse his ping joined the server, you might as well have left - even if you were way higher skilled, there was no way not to die. You could be in literally point blank range with him and then die from a combo he shot behind you.

                      No idea why Steve doesn't unlock the compensation limit and make all the latency higher than 120ms be compensated by prediction only. There's no real downsides to it, as it does not cause projectiles to be harder to dodge, but makes it easier for high pingers to play.

                      Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
                      Prediction has been there from start. Best working prediction was before this latest build, possibly a few builds before that it was slightly bit better too. But in general it has worked "decently" until this build except one or two exceptional builds.
                      No, there used to be no ping compensation at all early in the development (like UT99/2k4/UT3 default netcode). When it was added, it was already a combination of ping prediction + time rewind.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
                        No idea why Steve doesn't unlock the compensation limit and make all the latency higher than 120ms be compensated by prediction only. There's no real downsides to it, as it does not cause projectiles to be harder to dodge, but makes it easier for high pingers to play.
                        Yea, agree. For time rewind perhaps 120 is a more reasonable upper limit but prediction should be possible to be set higher. Makes world of difference for shock combo play.
                        Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 11-27-2015, 07:34 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
                          Well, then you don't get it :P Prediction is still much better than having no compensation for higher pingers. I know a game that has prediction only (no time rewind) and people could play it sorta-competitively with 300 ping.

                          Having all of your 300 ping compensated by time rewind is a terrible idea, just look at UT99 NewNet. It had no ping limit AFAIK (or maybe something really large like 500ms) and if a 300 pinger who knew how to abuse his ping joined the server, you might as well have left - even if you were way higher skilled, there was no way not to die. You could be in literally point blank range with him and then die from a combo he shot behind you.

                          No idea why Steve doesn't unlock the compensation limit and make all the latency higher than 120ms be compensated by prediction only. There's no real downsides to it, as it does not cause projectiles to be harder to dodge, but makes it easier for high pingers to play.



                          No, there used to be no ping compensation at all early in the development (like UT99/2k4/UT3 default netcode). When it was added, it was already a combination of ping prediction + time rewind.
                          I don't completely understand prediction, from what I understand is it just smooths out movement if the tickrate is low or if the players are suffering packetloss? I don't think it effects players with stable, high ping connection. If you have an example of how prediction effects gameplay it would be good. Do you have the name of the game that has prediction only? I want to youtube the gameplay at high ping. Ive seen UT99 Newnet gameplay, and that is how every modern non dead game compensates for lag, which is why I think UT 4 should go atleast that route. The high ping player still shares the same disadvantages though, his position still trails behind him allowing him to still fall victim in the same way he kills players? Projectiles will still seem "invisible" for him because he is playing high ping.

                          Has pre-step lag compensation been considered for this game? https://www.reddit.com/r/Tribes/comm..._compensation/

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
                            I don't completely understand prediction, from what I understand is it just smooths out movement if the tickrate is low or if the players are suffering packetloss? I don't think it effects players with stable, high ping connection.
                            No, what you are describing here is probably interpolation. That's not a ping compensation technique, and it was present in UT99 as well even though that had no ping compensation by default.

                            Prediction works locally on your game client AFAIK, and it looks at the player positions and velocity the server sends to it, and using your ping, predicts where they actually are on the server already (since all data you receive from the server is delayed by *insert your ping here* ms.) This way, instead of seeing players *insert your ping here* milliseconds behind where they actually are, you see them.. well, where they actually are. Most of the time. (there can be errors)

                            At least, that's how I think it works in UT4. You could also probably predict them further than where they actually are on the server to compensate for the time it takes information about you firing to reach the server, but I doubt UT4 does that as it has time rewind and possibly pre-step as well.

                            Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
                            If you have an example of how prediction effects gameplay it would be good. Do you have the name of the game that has prediction only? I want to youtube the gameplay at high ping. Ive seen UT99 Newnet gameplay, and that is how every modern non dead game compensates for lag, which is why I think UT 4 should go atleast that route. The high ping player still shares the same disadvantages though, his position still trails behind him allowing him to still fall victim in the same way he kills players? Projectiles will still seem "invisible" for him because he is playing high ping.
                            The game that has ping prediction only is Serious Sam (the classic ones, not HD). Sadly, I doubt you will find any high ping videos of it where you can really see the netcode in action, but I played it with 250 ping and could do fairly well. It still wasn't great though due to teleporting/warping players (due to people strafing and the prediction calculating their position incorrectly), so UT99 NN is much more playable at higher pings. But it also didn't give the other players on the server any issues, they would not be able to tell if you had high ping or not.

                            Of course, high pingers experience the same (or worse) issues that low pingers do, but they at least KNOW they have high ping and are probably used to it. Other players on the server might have good ping and be used to playing with it against other people, and then this high pinger comes onto the server and suddenly they can't dodge any of his shots. I don't like the idea of having to know the approximate ping of every player on the server and having to dodge their shots earlier than usual (which still wouldn't be enough to dodge a 300 pinger's shots, they are literally impossible to avoid).

                            Originally posted by dmirtygorachyov View Post
                            Has pre-step lag compensation been considered for this game? https://www.reddit.com/r/Tribes/comm..._compensation/
                            Don't quote me on this, but I think pre-step is already in the game.. at least from what I can observe by playing it. High ping players' projectiles noticeably spawn further out from them than low ping players'. This might however just be local prediction of projectiles to make them appear in the place the shooter sees them, so that you can dodge them more accurately at sufficient range.

                            Either way, whether time rewind or pre-step is used on projectiles in UT4, they are pretty much the same thing and both make it hard to dodge projectiles at close range, so they need to have a maximum compensation limit.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Well, I doubt what I want to happen will happen, which is more generous lag compensation for shooting at high pings (rewind or prestep). I just think that the current, strict lag comp will hurt the casual base more than it benefits it. Thats just an opinion anyway. For the time being I guess I'll find something else to play since the game is pretty dead on AU. I think not being able to dodge a pingers projectiles is a small price to play for a healthier playerbase. Most dodges are pre-emptive anyway so seeing the projectile doesn't actually benefit the dodger to begin with. There is also the rule about hitscans and how they are inherently undodgable, so I don't think players should be punished for using them at high ping even if they lose the luxury of not seeing an accurate hitscan visual. I understand why arena shooters tend to adopt this method, I'm just hoping it wouldn't, because It would be unplayable for players like me and it just has to be shelved.

                              Since the prediction methods is still abit unclear, I will leave that one out for now.

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