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Spawns and Spawn Protection.

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  • #31
    This has been discussed in the past but it's a worthy topic to revisit. I'm not against the option to choose your spawn, but the split second of spawn protection (once the player has chosen their spawn and has actually spawned) should be a mutator that needs to be added in duel. By default, no spawn protection should exist in duel or competitive game types, but I'm in favor of giving the person creating the game the choice to add spawn protection or having it on by default for FFA DM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by legionz View Post
      This has been discussed in the past but it's a worthy topic to revisit. I'm not against the option to choose your spawn, but the split second of spawn protection (once the player has chosen their spawn and has actually spawned) should be a mutator that needs to be added in duel. By default, no spawn protection should exist in duel or competitive game types, but I'm in favor of giving the person creating the game the choice to add spawn protection or having it on by default for FFA DM.
      To add to this, have it on when you're on a beginner server, and when playing 1/2 star challenges.
      Perhaps a tickbox option when creating a match? it should definitely be clearly visible whether the match you are about to have includes spawn protection or not.

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      • #33
        I thought a majority of people on the forums agreed that making it an option would be the best route to take...months ago...
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        • #34
          I'd say since the game will have both casual and competitive rule sets I'd make spawn protection off in competitive rule sets and on in casual and this should also be an option to pick as you setup a new match.
          Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 11-28-2015, 11:09 AM.

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          • #35
            Replace the spawn protection with an effect that heals you for 50 health over 2 seconds to a max of 100, or some other numbers. That would still be a help against casual opponents but wouldn't stop competitive opponents from killing you.

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            • #36
              Spawn protection is a buzz kill, a party pooper.
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              • #37
                I want to mention this. As soon as someone who has spawn protection still on picks up a weapon or shoots his current held one, the spawn protection is off. But that feature doesn't help for instagib tho.
                ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
                ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by cafe
                  I remember Jim Brown saying once that in a perfect spawn system, spawn protection would not be needed.
                  Exactly this. There's a difference between manipulating/deducing your opponents' spawns and exploiting a broken spawn system. Spawn protection is a bandaid to prevent the latter. So fix the spawning algorithm and there will be no need for spawn protection while everyone has more fun as a result.
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                  • #39
                    Yeah it was brought up in previous threads/IRC but no one even paid attention, tbh. If you have good spawns, on a good map, spawn protection makes no sense. I'd say a big part of the issue is exactly that..the spawn locations are just bad and probably haven't been worked on. I don't even know how they are implemented. Are they added by whoever makes the map? When this was brought up in the past people in support of spawn protection just brushed over it, even though it's the underlying issue.
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cookiemonster View Post
                      Yeah it was brought up in previous threads/IRC but no one even paid attention, tbh. If you have good spawns, on a good map, spawn protection makes no sense. I'd say a big part of the issue is exactly that..the spawn locations are just bad and probably haven't been worked on. I don't even know how they are implemented. Are they added by whoever makes the map? When this was brought up in the past people in support of spawn protection just brushed over it, even though it's the underlying issue.
                      Actually it's not the spawn locations in the maps it's the algorithm the game uses to choose where you spawn. The only variable that really matters is where enemy players are when you respawn. With a little practice it's very predictable, the fewer players in the match, the more predictable it is.

                      Try it with just you and a single bot in FFA DM sometime. It's pretty much 100% predictable where the bot spawns after you kill it. All that matters is where you are when the bot respawns. It's been like that since UT2k3 when they changed the spawn selection routine from the more random spawns original UT used... All because some players complained it wasn't fair when they respawned near and especially in line of sight of an enemy player (any other player in FFA DM).

                      So Epic changed it to find "the best" spawn point. The problem with that is when all the variables (mostly enemy positions) are the same it always chooses the exact same spawn point.

                      In 2k4 TDM with intelligent positioning you could lock the other team out of spawning in one part of the map and into another... I haven't actually tested that in UT4 but it certainly was the case in 2k4 and since it's every bit as predictable with 2 players in both games I doubt it's any different with more players.

                      All they really need to do to fix the problem is add some random element to spawn selection. Instead of trying to pick one single "best" place to spawn, finding several good spots and randomly picking one of them would work much better. Or another way of looking at it, toss out the "worst" spawn points and randomly pick one of the "better" ones.

                      Of course in an overcrowded spamfest (10+ players on most DM maps for example), it doesn't really matter, just about every spawn is going to be a poor one. You really can't do much about that.
                      Last edited by MoxNix; 11-30-2015, 01:31 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                        All they really need to do to fix the problem is add some random element to spawn selection. Instead of trying to pick one single "best" place to spawn, finding several good spots and randomly picking one of them would work much better. Or another way of looking at it, toss out the "worst" spawn points and randomly pick one of the "better" ones.
                        I thought that was true, but it seems it got lost at some point. I'll put in some slight randomness. No reason not to choose randomly between 'equal' spawn points.

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                        • #42
                          2K4 spawns were basically the spawn points furthest away from the players' current positions. Fairly easy to predict on most maps, even for newer players, after a few rounds. Did you see anyone clamoring for spawn protection? No. When dueling in UT4, I have spawned directly next to the opponent, which leads me to believe that the 'algorithm' isn't even that developed in this stage and people complaining 'wah protect me until I get a weapon' can just chill until the game is further along. Still, we can just rehash the same arguments over and over again, it'll just be removed in any type of competitive environment.. which is why I see the addition of a tickbox option as a simple, easy solution. The only response I see from supporters is saying 'Oh, well just try it out and it might lead to better gameplay' comments. You can duel one match with a buddy you want to beat, with spawn protection enabled, and see how badly it hurts gameplay. Legionz has made a number of posts highlighting exactly how it ruins certain situations.


                          The randomness between equal spawn points would certainly help. The only issue I've had is spawning directly next to an opponent on ASDF or Lea..which I figured was just an error or something.
                          Last edited by Cookiemonster; 11-30-2015, 01:17 PM. Reason: Love and Peace
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                          • #43
                            I would add some randomness between some acceptable range of spawn points, rather than only equal spawnpoints.
                            Creator of NewNet for UT99

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                            • #44
                              At least in duel, most of the times the reason you sometimes spawn right next to the other person is the spawn selection. Because the algorithm selects two spawns based on where your opponent is right when you die, but then you have several seconds to select the spawn, the opponent can get very close if not stand on top of the spawn you selected by the time you do. The spawns basically become outdated because the opponent can still move around the map while you are picking.

                              Dunno if there's anything you could do to stop that from happening. On smaller maps like ASDF there's no place to spawn you where the opponent wouldn't be able to get within LOS to you in the time it takes you to pick a spawn.

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                              • #45
                                I don't remember the last time I could choose where I spawned in duel. Is that still on epic hubs? I seriously can't even remember lol.
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