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What would make people play arena FPS games again. Thoughts from non arenafps players

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    What would make people play arena FPS games again. Thoughts from non arenafps players

    Recently this thread was posted on reddit in /r/pcgaming https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/co...ld_it_take_to/

    I feel that it really offers some good insight into what has been missing from the arena fps genre in recent years. Its also important that this information is coming from people NOT on these forums because it offers a much different perspective than what are used to. Anyways I recommend the devs and people here give it a read over to see where UT is at compared to what people want.

    General highlights from the comments as to why people havn't been playing arena fps genre games recently:
    • Matchmaking! People do not like to wade into servers with unknown skill levels.
    • Getting absolutely destroyed by veterans of the series. People don't need to win instantly but they don't like getting absolutely destroyed to the point where they don't feel can compete without pouring hundreds of hours into a game. Proper skill based match making would definitely help with this and the beginner hub already does. We need to support the new players as best as we can. Here is a good quote from /u/wannabeemperor

      Yeah the high entry and re-entry floor is a big part of it for me. I too played a ton of Quake and UT as a youngin'. I've been keeping track of the development of the new Arena shooters and am intrigued in some way or another by almost all of them. I even have Quake Live installed on Steam at home. But I have yet to jump in, because I know there is no support or community for new or returning players. I'll watch a Quake Live match and think..."OK so it will take me 10-15 hours of play to start to memorize item drops on this level alone...I will be dominated the entire time, and it will be frustrating and intimidating...I guess I'll boot up Civ 5 instead"
    • People do not like powerup/ timing. It is a boring tactic and not interesting to watch. This makes duel boring by association and not interesting. Good job devs for recognizing this early and moving away from duel being the main competitive gametype.
    • Interesting gametypes. People want more than just DM/CTF based gametypes. Team showdown is a good addition and assault would go a long way into making this the advantage for UT.
    • Lack of progression. Good job on the levels devs. Seasons are a great way to keep progression for the same game going as well.
    • Not on steam. I personally don't think the game should be on steam... YET. When it is actually ready for mass consumption it should be on steam to reach that critical mass of players that are needed for good match making. I am not sure it will reach that if it is not on steam.
    • Not enough of an active playerbase. This is a chicken and egg problem. People won't play because no one is playing. There is a certain critical mass the game MUST hit if it is going to interest more people and have proper match making available. This will probably require a marketing blitz when the game is in a ready state for it.
    • No arena fps game has been properly released and supported with all these modern elements. Well then lets make UT be the first!


    Overall it sounds like UT is moving in the right direction for most of these items and with matchmaking, a new gametype on top of showdown and a lot of polish this will be ready for the masses. How do you think we doing towards meeting these requirements and what can we do to keep making this game more appealing to these people?

    #2
    So, people just don't know what they want?

    Originally posted by cdiddy2 View Post
    what can we do to keep making this game more appealing to these people?
    Billion achievements, crates (and paid keys), paid challenges (operations from CS:GO), CoD BO style, paid boost packs, xp packs, skin paks, killcam, useless titles and ranks... wait oh shi...!

    Just a joke! (it's a kill game)

    Speaking seriously - the only thing that can be advised to "these people" - is to poke their proposals to wherever no light. And send them to play other games, because they don't understand absolutely nothing in arena fps games.

    Comment


      #3
      Aside from the fun factor, it need to frequently have varied stuff to keep people interested (this is for all games, not just arena FPS). Games with frequent updates and/or new contents keep people hooked for longer time in general.

      Modding, mapping and everything that permit to let players add a tons of different new features or way to play is also a good plus. UT fortunately possess such a possiblity with the UE4 and UT editor, what I don't know however is how easy, accessible or usable it is. I only spend a few minutes inthe editors so I can tell about it, but the BP stuff just put me off just looking at an exemple. If these things are worked to make them easy enough to toy with it, as well as make a well built system for the marketplace, it would probably help expending the fun/attractiveness and in a certain way the lifespan of UT.

      Now I agree with most of your points (even if I'm kind of an old school mentality and don't mind being rekt and the powerup/timing stuff ). Only the steam and active playerbase are peculiar, the first because it would be rather strange to conflict Epic's own launcher against steam (they are competing after all), and the second because, as you pointed, it's an chicken and egg problem.

      Comment


        #4
        Agree on skill based matchmaking. Without a good implementation of that, there will be disaster: 40-0 beatdowns, followed by rage for some, lack of fun for others, accusations of hax, rapidly emptying servers. I've seen this happen so much its become like clockwork, and it can easily fracture the player base. Although you should be able to spectate games regardless of skill level, giving lower players a chance to watch higher end games.

        Disagree on powerup timing, it is a classic arena fps tactic, and one that requires focus/skill. I find that duel is both the easiest to watch, and by far the most interesting. Playing it is another thing though, since it requires effort and time. It's also not team based, and based on current e-sports or popular games, team-based game modes are clearly more popular than any form of duel.

        Agree on Steam. Its by far the largest pool of potential players that can be tapped in. In addition, nobody really wants to use other clients over it (lol, origin). People won't magically switch because they already have a lot invested in Steam - games, friends, etc. Dunno if Epic wants to even consider putting it out on there, but it will make a big difference to the number of players.

        One personal suggestion is running some form of online, competitive league/tournament events, frequently. It doesn't have to have monumental cash prizes, just needs to give players the ability to test their skill in games that actually matter. It doesn't require that much investment, and I'm certain a lot of people from the community would help out with running it. In return, it gives a feeling that the game actually has a community that is alive, and not just a disorganized mess of pub players/servers doing their own thing. You could always use the standard tiered league system, to ensure that even newbs could compete for something in their skill level.

        And lastly, the gameplay itself shouldn't be designed for a specific group of people as frequently mentioned on here. Skilled and bad players can co-exist (separated by walls of course) as long as the gameplay remains good. It provides the player with a linear path upwards, as they will eventually rank up by accumulating experience.

        Comment


          #5
          There's plenty of banging on about matchmaking and progression, and numerous apologies for why the genre can't be successful. Then of course there's also the marvelous chicken and egg arguments of just needing more players and thriving competitive communities and perfect balance.

          So I found some of the most original quotes I could.

          Originally posted by CosmicTraveller@Reddit
          I feel as if Halo used to bridge that gap between more casual play whilst still maintaining an arena FPS feel. The series has lost that aspect with time, however.

          Originally posted by PROJTHEBENIFICENT@Reddit
          First of all, these games are way too heavily based upon a very small set of mechanical skills. Most importantly, item timing and aiming. Movement is important, but it's a skill you can get to a sufficient level and then not worry about too much again (in-combat movement is always going to be far less important than in-combat aiming skill anyways). Once you can consistently perform jumps like bridge to rail, there's not a lot of benefit you get out of being a defrag master. So you have a small number of these very deep, very difficult mechanical skills. That doesn't really make for an interesting game. It's not like you don't know that you need to aim better; there's just no shortcut to doing so. On top of that, the skill difference between new and old players has never been wider, especially with modern day hardware and lag compensation. Casual players are not running games typically on 144 hz monitors with a g303 on an 18 inch mousepad on a computer with a gtx 980 and i7 processor. They're screwed right out of the gate with hardware even before you take their (lack of) skill into account. My experience playing a wide variety of games for many thousands of hours is that mechanical skills are generally not attractive to a wider audience. There has to be more knowledge and content based skills. There should also be a wider variety of mechanical skills so that people can develop what they're strong at. This is one of the great things that tribes has that makes it such a much better designed game than the arena shooters: it has dozens of really, really deep mechanical skills so people can really specialize into doing what they want to do.

          Originally posted by Happiershibe@Reddit
          This doesn't make the game itself more approachable, what you're saying is that you're offering free classes on how to play your unapproachable game, not that you've built a game with a lower execution barrier. To continue the FGC comparison, look at Street Fighter 5: There's still a lot of learning you have to do before you can play well, but they've also made changes to the game to lower the execution barrier, They removed 1 frame links from the game, and made all normal->specials cancels rather than links. Those changes make the game easier to play. They also made changes to the anti-air and movement game that many people haven't fully grokked yet, but which clearly make the game easier to understand.
          Originally posted by Netbioserror@Reddit
          I would say they're too frantic and high-stress. Part of why I'm enjoying competitive CS:GO is that it's got a strong strategic element that takes time to play out, gives you some thinking space, and it's great with friends. Arena DM games move way too fast for that.I think one of the reasons fast shooters like CoD are successful is because they simplify EVERYTHING around the insane pace, letting it be sort of cathartic, and have a massive reward progression pulling you along. Titanfall failed to retain players because it broke both of these rules: There's WAY too much to think about in addition to the insane pace of gameplay, and the reward progression was stunted.
          As soon as a game slows down, and has strong strategic elements, these things become less necessary. I think MOBAs and CS:GO and TF2 and BF4 are so strong in player count because they have robust reward systems, are a platform for lots of free updates that increase value without mandatory charges, AND, most importantly, they're slow and strategic enough to not burn you out in 20 minutes of play.

          Comment


            #6
            Great post cdiddy. For this game to have any level of success there has to be a strong and sizable community. It doesn't need to have 100k concurrent players (though that would be nice of course lol) but the 10-70 (roughly, I know this isn't 100% accurate I'm just throwing numbers out there) concurrent players we see now won't cut it. Not by a long shot.

            Hardcore competitive players and long time fans will play, but without fresh new blood the game won't succeed. Without that the game won't get the dev resources, media attention, and plethora of high quality community mods and maps it needs to succeed. Case in point is the loss of many quality and/or fun maps due to the engine change and need to recook maps. They are slowly coming back but I know there are several I personally miss playing still.

            Everybody hiding in IRC and only playing in pugs hurts the game in the long run... even for those players that prefer to play the game that way. We need to build a strong UT community by involving ourselves, being positive, and helping newer players.
            Last edited by Podosniper; 02-20-2016, 05:25 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              As the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. For example I would never play world of warcraft or minecraft despite them being very popular. I would never listen or buy or go watch an artists music if I'm not into their style. Even if the rest of the world does. If your a fps fan then you will check it out if you have fun you will continue if you don't you will move on.
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              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Skaary View Post

                Speaking seriously - the only thing that can be advised to "these people" - is to poke their proposals to wherever no light. And send them to play other games, because they don't understand absolutely nothing in arena fps games.
                Originally posted by code187 View Post
                As the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. For example I would never play world of warcraft or minecraft despite them being very popular. I would never listen or buy or go watch an artists music if I'm not into their style. Even if the rest of the world does. If your a fps fan then you will check it out if you have fun you will continue if you don't you will move on.
                I am not saying everyone will play if it is popular or even that everyone should play. For some people this is not their style of game and that is fine. But notice how almost everyone in that thread had accessibility and lack of good high quality titles as the main stopper. There was relatively little talk about the actual gameplay mechanics holding anyone back.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I would say they're too frantic and high-stress. Part of why I'm enjoying competitive CS:GO is that it's got a strong strategic element that takes time to play out, gives you some thinking space, and it's great with friends. Arena DM games move way too fast for that.I think one of the reasons fast shooters like CoD are successful is because they simplify EVERYTHING around the insane pace, letting it be sort of cathartic, and have a massive reward progression pulling you along. Titanfall failed to retain players because it broke both of these rules: There's WAY too much to think about in addition to the insane pace of gameplay, and the reward progression was stunted.
                  As soon as a game slows down, and has strong strategic elements, these things become less necessary. I think MOBAs and CS:GO and TF2 and BF4 are so strong in player count because they have robust reward systems, are a platform for lots of free updates that increase value without mandatory charges, AND, most importantly, they're slow and strategic enough to not burn you out in 20 minutes of play.
                  This is probably the number one reason I don't play much now, UT has (for the present, anyway) changed from its roots where half the available online servers were actually camp-heavy servers. You could play whatever style you wanted. Camp or run-n-gun. Onslaught brought this same balance into 2k4, it was a gametype where you could spend your time building nodes and doing other slightly more relaxing things than full on assaulting a base and barricade of high gunpower defenders.

                  Basically, it's a different game than I remember, and we could argue that modders will bring a lot of it back, but the question is whether they'll want to. Some of this needs to be encouraged more in default game modes and game play, rather than relying on the community to fix it. Showdown and TSD are an ok start, but still rely on run and gun only.

                  UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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                  Comment


                    #10
                    Okay, heartfelt post incoming...

                    I love UT and I used to play the hell out of it in highschool. I still love the story and universe and world, but I really REALLY don't enjoy playing UT right now. There is absolutely nothing drawing me into playing UT versus other games, and I can pretty much sum the reason up to an anecdote:

                    So, I was playing Rocket League the other day, it was actually the first time I had EVER played it. I sucked at it, like, I sucked HARD at this game. I played for hours online and could not win a single game... A SINGLE GAME. I was getting owned, accidentally scoring goals on myself, completely missing shots, getting 5-0 dominated, matched up with MUCH higher level players.. Basically four or five hours of me getting DESTROYED. Four or five hours filled with 5-minute matches: NONE of which I was on the winning team. Literally NOT A SINGLE MATCH.

                    This is very similar to my experience with UT. I lose all the time. In my time with UT I have NEVER been on top of the scoreboard. That not a figure of speech, check my stats; I have never won a game. I get dominated and embarrassed every time I play.

                    The difference between Rocket League and UT? I still want to play Rocket League. Every time I lost a match in rocket league, I wanted to play another match. Every time I got completely humiliated in under 5 minutes: I wanted to try again. I was having fun losing. Let me repeat that so it sinks in:

                    I was having fun while losing




                    Compare that with UT. I'll fire up UT out of an obligation because I kind of feel like I have to: then I hop online and get destroyed and I don't want to play any more. I did not have fun. I know the maps, I know the pickups, I know the rules and the movement. I simply don't have fun. The only times I've had fun in UT is while I was on the 'giving' end of punishment. When I get the rare drop on someone or when I was on the winning team. UT is only fun if you're winning, which means 50% of most team games are filled with players who aren't having fun, and FFA games are MOSTLY people who aren't enjoying themselves.

                    "Lol get good, noob"

                    Sure, but why? Why when I can play other games that make me want to play even when I get my *** handed to me? Why waste my time trying to 'get gud' in a game that is not at all enjoyable, when I could put in hours in a game that I actually have fun with? It has nothing to do with skill, it has everything to do with game feel.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think it needs really fun weapon play. Casuals, who are matchmaked with other new players, should be able to have a lot of fun just by shooting weapons. UT back in the day probably had a lot of appeal because it had a lot of varied weapons that were pretty crazy conceptually but still felt good to shoot. UT4 is pre-alpha so the visual and audio effects aren't on par yet (they don't have a single visual effects guy working on UT, while Paragon has like 6).

                      IMO, as long as it's fun to run around the map and shoot weapons, new players will stick around. Combat needs to be visceral, weapons should feel powerful and like an extension of your hand. There needs to be lots of gore, blowing up bodies, shaking screen, rumbling explosions, etc. (With options to disable it for competitive play of course) Right now CS, BF, COD all look the same and boring to me, they all have these realistic hitscan guns. UT could attract a lot of people if it has a fun to use weapon arsenal.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        M a t c h m a k i n g
                        :|

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Matchmaking is a must be of course. This is the only thing needed to avoid raping newbies by veterans. Gameplay shouldn't be casualised. It should be made for competitive community as a main aim.

                          Originally posted by cdiddy2 View Post
                          [*] People do not like powerup/ timing. It is a boring tactic and not interesting to watch. This makes duel boring by association and not interesting. Good job devs for recognizing this early and moving away from duel being the main competitive gametype.[/LIST]
                          Not true.
                          Last edited by rAge.; 02-20-2016, 07:33 PM.

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                          Comment


                            #14
                            Fix broken mouse input. Make weapons more fun and less random. Compare with previous UT titles if you don't know what I mean.

                            Everything in UT4 in regards of weapons and movement feel casualized. Make the game deeper so that you allow room for learning new things.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by lo2dk View Post
                              Fix broken mouse input. Make weapons more fun and less random. Compare with previous UT titles if you don't know what I mean.

                              Everything in UT4 in regards of weapons and movement feel casualized. Make the game deeper so that you allow room for learning new things.
                              Missing the point of the thread.
                              This about the genre and what's keeping so many players away, not the minor annoyances you have with UT4.

                              Also, about that word, "random"... As far as I've checked, the only weapons that use RNG are the Enforcer and the Flak.

                              Comment

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