Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What would make people play arena FPS games again. Thoughts from non arenafps players

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Arena is more defined by what it's not. Process of semantic elimination, if you will.
    [MENTION=259874]richardboegli[/MENTION] I helped develop TAM. I had plenty of feed back and community interaction. I know why people liked it
    Originally posted by Mysterial
    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

    Comment


      Whether it's "arena shooter" or another term, it's useful to have a label for games where:

      • You fight against other players or bots that emulate players in matches that begin and end within one play session.
      • You often shoot stuff that behaves differently from bullets. For example bio, shock secondary, link, flak, and rockets.
      • You stay alive mainly by moving so that you become difficult to hit. As opposed to by killing the enemy before they see you or have time to react as in tactical shooters, hiding behind obstacles as in cover based shooters, or tanking the damage as in RPGs.
      • Everyone has access to the same power when spawning. There can still be load out choices as long as you don't win fights by having access to better load outs due to for example stronger economy, higher level, or smarter character/load out building.


      In reply to the actual topic, I think what's really eye catching about arena shooters is spectacular weapons and spectacular movement. Instead of walking around and shooting plain old bullets you can bounce around the map with jumps that wouldn't be possible in reality and shoot stuff that looks flashier than bullets. Animation has come a long way since UT99 though so it takes more moves to live up to that image today. Wall running, first person taunts and the other new additions are steps in the right direction.

      What a lot of people would stay for is fast paced and crazy action that's fun, fun, and more fun. The fun is already there it's just buried under issues that make the game frustrating not only for competitive players but for casual players as well. The devs are heading in the right direction when it comes to for example visibility, let's just hope they take some hints from Wail's weapons as well.

      Out of the game types so far I think TSD and Assault have the most potential to attract and keep new players.
      Last edited by MegaLokey; 02-29-2016, 08:55 AM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
        Arena is more defined by what it's not. Process of semantic elimination, if you will.
        hehe, when you don't have a definition, use exclusions to define what its not.

        Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
        @richardboegli I helped develop TAM. I had plenty of feed back and community interaction. I know why people liked it
        Ahh OK, nice! I never played TAM till UT4. I played CPMA / Promode for Q3Arena which was very similar.

        Note: I originally posted this a few hours back, but it look like it didn't post, so here it is again.....
        Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

        Comment


          I'm new to arena-fps games, and have been a CS player for most of my life, so my input will likely be very useful or completely irrelevant.

          Two things that UT4 needs most to survive:
          -Lots of Mods
          -Heavy emphasis on community servers
          -VOICE CHAT PLEASE
          -Moving and aiming should feel as good as possible

          It might be different for Arena-FPS games but what kept CS:S alive for so long (and basically even until now) is the huge amount of mods and content the community created for the game. Teenager me had no idea that competitive counter-strike was even a thing; having spent 3k hours of my adolescence surf, minigames, deathrun, etc. Only when CS:GO came around did I learn about the competitive scene, and then invested 2k hrs into cs:go within 3years what took me maybe 6 for CS:S.

          However CS:GO has been getting boring for me and a lot of the people I started the game with from CS:S recently, and it only really seems super tryhards who play the game only for the joy of winning itself are keeping their attention on the game. The problems that are starting to drive some people away from CS:GO now are the lack of real community servers without an artificial and streamlined taste to them, that the community servers are practically hidden in the main menu, and the fact that the game has never really "felt" right for it's genre due to it being so slippery in aim and movement.

          NOW to tie all that (which I don't feel like condensing) into UT4: Although UT4 should have matchmaking as it's proven to be a really good and convenient system, a heavy emphasis should be put on community servers with the button for them just as big and visible as the matchmaking button (if not bigger). The game needs voice chat for this reason too, the easier conversation flows within a community the more likely people are going to stick around, a big part of CS:S was rejoining the same old servers again and again where everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came.

          If you want a HUGE example of what mods and servers with almost no push-back upon entry does for attracting players look at the only game that beats CS:S in that department, GarrysMod the Seinfeld of videogames (a game about literally nothing). That game is kept alive PURELY because people get to know each other and love playing and making mods for it.

          The community for a game is EVERYTHING, it is the foundation upon everything that's built, so even if a huge modding community doesn't grow in this game (although I expect it will) voice chat NEEDS to be added. A big attractive community will siphon tons of players to the game, especially when people tell their friends about this cool new (and free) game and play on relaxed community servers with them.

          The last thing on the list is somewhat unrelated and something UT4 is already doing very well imo, but I felt like listing it in case of future changes and because the way CS:GO felt prevented me from playing it initially until my friends pressured me into giving it a chance for a week.

          P.S. I disagree with that point about dueling, especially since dueling is often a very short game mode in-terms of time. It's practically the point of this type of game, and it makes great spectator
          Last edited by imawut; 02-29-2016, 12:11 PM.

          Comment


            What raises eyebrows is that Halo, Call of Duty, Rainbow Six Vegas and even Counter-Strike have shown that FPS players embrace the games that give them options. And the core gameplay of those games are separated from the gametypes. In Halo on a single map players could play FFA, DM, TDM, Oddball, CTF, VIP, Assault, Infection, etc. That's the definition of smart business and making a game fully accessible to a wider audience. Same thing for Rainbow Six Vegas 2. Counter-Strike tried hard to be conservative and yet players keep playing Gungames.

            People should stop trying so hard to perceive UT as an Arena Shooter and start to embrace it as a sandbox of fun for FPS players. A solid weapon editor, give players the ability to create gametypes with loadouts, etc. Make FPS mods easy and accessible, user-friendly. Don't try to turn UT into an Arena Shooter. Instead, turn UT into a killer app and kick the **** out of Halo, CoD or else. Be king, take the crown. Stop chasing your own outdated shadow.
            Last edited by 3Dmatic; 02-29-2016, 12:17 PM.

            Comment


              UnrealTournament is essentially a sandbox game. It still needs a core. As we're seeing now, an arena shooter is probably one of the most difficult genre of game to balance. As such, it makes sense to start there, especially due to its roots.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

              Comment


                Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                UnrealTournament is essentially a sandbox game. It still needs a core. As we're seeing now, an arena shooter is probably one of the most difficult genre of game to balance. As such, it makes sense to start there, especially due to its roots.
                Nobody is in disagreement with you there.

                But in UT, the maps are designed for 1 specific gametype. In Halo 2, maps were designed for all gametypes, players could play Duel, FFA, DM, TDM, CTF, Assault, King of the Hill, Oddball, Team Swat, Team Sniper, Territories, etc. Players could play their favorite gametypes in their favorites maps. Halo 2 offered a maximum of re-usability, accessibility and fun. In UT, you would need DM-Testmap, CTF-Testmap, etc. That's not user-friendly, easy or accessible. It's not fun either. And what about progressive gametypes that just cycles through different gametypes over time as it was the case in Killzone 2? Forget it.

                Also, any multiplayer game is hard to balance. But if you notice, the community has asked for a proper user-friendly Weapon Editor to tweak or create new weapons back then in 2014, we are now in 2016 and we are stuck with unique blueprints that don't yet share gameplay mechanics. I cannot just turn on headshots on the Enforcer or edit headshot multiplayer damage or make projectile explode or anything like that. If we had such weapon editor, in just a few days or weeks, the community could come up with a lot of decent content.

                And if we had a Gametype Editor, players/modders could come up with a lot of decent setups.

                Comment


                  I feel though, like that is a separate issue. The reality is the editor is there. It's always been there. The current one may no be fully functional, but it's there. You just have to learn how to use it.

                  Learning to code the stuff up is a barrier for design. The idea is if you are motivated enough, and think your design ideas are good enough, then you will invest the time to learn to use the current tools. You see Wails stuff, and you start to wish more people could do it, but making it too accessible will bring a lot of low quality content to sift through.

                  Also, it's not too tough to play DM on CTF maps, but it really doesn't happen much because of flow issues. I'm not super familiar with Halo, but it's possible that other unique game play mechanics to Halo, make it less sensitive to map flow. It's also possible that the players it attracts are less sensitive to map flow. Don't know enough to say.
                  Originally posted by Mysterial
                  An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by imawut View Post
                    I'm new to arena-fps games, and have been a CS player for most of my life, so my input will likely be very useful or completely irrelevant.

                    Two things that UT4 needs most to survive:
                    -Lots of Mods
                    -Heavy emphasis on community servers
                    -VOICE CHAT PLEASE
                    -Moving and aiming should feel as good as possible
                    @imawut ....I count FOUR


                    1) UT has always been a mod heavy franchise, UT99 supported it out of the box, which also answers 2)
                    3) Voice chat is not integrated yet, but I see this as inevitable through Epic's social system. In the interim there is TeamSpeak which almost everyone uses during PUG matches
                    4) This is constantly being tweaked with each release.
                    Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
                      This has done nothing to tell me what UT's "identity" is, or what you think an arena shooter is.
                      UT is an arena shooter with a heavy focus on DM and CTF.

                      There are no classes and every player can use every weapon, the players are all identical to each other except in looks.

                      The emphasis is on run and gun, rather than using any cover, with a very high game speed (compared to other shooters).

                      The level design supports this by being very open, with 3 or more paths leading into and out of almost every part of the map (no funneling).

                      A minor but still defining mechanic is the timing of weapon and powerup spawns, which makes up a lot of the strategy for 1on1 DM (something that Quake 3 shares, actually).

                      Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                      Quake 4 was developed by Raven Software.



                      What do you mean by something new? Wasn't UT3 much smaller in scope than UT 2K4? I understand that character customization and hoverboards were cool, but not sure how UT3 brought anything ''new'' to the franchise or the FPS genre itself.

                      Also Dementiurge was probably talking about the Loadouts in Quake Live.
                      UT3 was misguided in the way that it attempted a 'serious' storyline with the campaign, and structured its entire design around it (Necris vs everyone else). It wasn't the Unreal Tournament anymore, but an offshoot.

                      As for the loadouts, meh, Quake Live has been going down the same route i'd personally like UT not to go down. I vastly prefer 'normal' Quake 3.

                      Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                      What the hell you on about, Doom 4 is made by iD... Just cuz Carmack left doesnt mean iD dont still exist!

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_(2016_video_game)
                      I was talking about Quake 4, which is made by Raven en uses the Doom 3 engine

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                        Nobody is in disagreement with you there.

                        But in UT, the maps are designed for 1 specific gametype. In Halo 2, maps were designed for all gametypes, players could play Duel, FFA, DM, TDM, CTF, Assault, King of the Hill, Oddball, Team Swat, Team Sniper, Territories, etc. Players could play their favorite gametypes in their favorites maps. Halo 2 offered a maximum of re-usability, accessibility and fun. In UT, you would need DM-Testmap, CTF-Testmap, etc. That's not user-friendly, easy or accessible. It's not fun either. And what about progressive gametypes that just cycles through different gametypes over time as it was the case in Killzone 2? Forget it.

                        Also, any multiplayer game is hard to balance. But if you notice, the community has asked for a proper user-friendly Weapon Editor to tweak or create new weapons back then in 2014, we are now in 2016 and we are stuck with unique blueprints that don't yet share gameplay mechanics. I cannot just turn on headshots on the Enforcer or edit headshot multiplayer damage or make projectile explode or anything like that. If we had such weapon editor, in just a few days or weeks, the community could come up with a lot of decent content.

                        And if we had a Gametype Editor, players/modders could come up with a lot of decent setups.
                        You seem to contradict yourself here - Multiple levels is wrong, but multiple weapons is good for balance?

                        Personally, i think the levels in Halo are incredibly boring. There's nothing going on there. The reason they were re-used was because they could, not because it made any sense. People were happy they could shoot each other in the face, but not much else

                        You can't just mix CTF and DM level design, they are very different gamemodes. Level design is also a very underrated job, you can't just slap a few corridors and rooms together and call it a DM level. A lot of thought needs to go into them to get them right and if that means not reusing assets, that's fine by me. Too often shortcuts are taken with disastreous long term results.

                        This is also a reason why i would oppose customizable weapons, at least ingame. The balance issues get way, way out of hand if you allow that as maps are already designed to be used specifically with the main available weapons in mind.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by VfourA View Post
                          UT is an arena shooter with a heavy focus on DM and CTF.

                          There are no classes and every player can use every weapon, the players are all identical to each other except in looks.

                          The emphasis is on run and gun, rather than using any cover, with a very high game speed (compared to other shooters).

                          The level design supports this by being very open, with 3 or more paths leading into and out of almost every part of the map (no funneling).

                          A minor but still defining mechanic is the timing of weapon and powerup spawns, which makes up a lot of the strategy for 1on1 DM (something that Quake 3 shares, actually).



                          UT3 was misguided in the way that it attempted a 'serious' storyline with the campaign, and structured its entire design around it (Necris vs everyone else). It wasn't the Unreal Tournament anymore, but an offshoot.

                          As for the loadouts, meh, Quake Live has been going down the same route i'd personally like UT not to go down. I vastly prefer 'normal' Quake 3.
                          UT3 adhered to everything that you say makes an arena shooter. The Necris vehicles only showed up in the vehicle modes, and there were Axon only map variants.

                          Several of the things that you list as Arena FPS trademarks are... well, let's say that their opposites are draws. Players are drawn to more casual game modes, player customization, and strategy that isn't basic math and a clock. Piling 20+ fire modes on a single character may be outright harmful to gameplay, owing to the number of redundant or rarely utilized fire modes.

                          I don't suppose you picture large numbers of people wanting to actually play this game? :P

                          Comment


                            Some examples of good arena shooters:

                            QuakeWorld


                            Quake3CPMA


                            Painkiller


                            Half-Life adrenaline gamer


                            UT99


                            But anyway among them UT99 is the slowest one. But it's still good.
                            Most modern games are BAD. We have lost some gold stuff from golden FPS period.

                            BTW DOOM (brutal doom) Still looks fun
                            Last edited by e1vp; 03-01-2016, 04:26 PM.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                              Maybe we should ask Epic if UT was supposed to be just an Arena Shooter or just the best multiplayer FPS game yet ever made because the meaning of that today in 2016 would be different.


                              I see your video and raise you sir!
                              Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post


                                I see your video and raise you sir!


                                Returns the volley, rally for point!
                                Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X