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What would make people play arena FPS games again. Thoughts from non arenafps players

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    #31
    I like being destroyed 20-0. I dont have a problem with that,nor losing. I like spending several hours at losing. What i dont like is the false sense of achievement casual "pro" games offer like CS,COD-S BF-S,MOBAS. So,for me it boils down to playing 8 hours of UT and feel proud of myself and see improvements and say its all me or get a pat on the back from the other games just to make me feel better. I chose to keep it real, Unreal.

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      #32
      I'd rather see such a simple thing as a simple automatic teambalance feature on public hubs at the start of the round. Matchmaking fractures the community and even so it's not necessarily always ensuring the best player experience. IMO it's quite refreshing to play with various skill levels since it makes for a more dynamic game since noobs may wander about at the wrong places giving more room for the better players etc but the important point is that both sides of teams have to be even. It sucks to get steamrolled for x amount games in a row, it's not like there will be a lot of possibility for the other team to do anything if simply the skill levels are unevenly distributed.

      Why can't we have such a basic feature as teambalance when it's garantueed to improve the experience a huge amount on public hubs with mixed skill levels. The longer I wait without any hints of the feature being implemented the more frustrating when I know it's a simple but effective way of ensuring players stays playing the game longer. It was the main reason I could be playing up to several hrs in a row on the same server in UT3. I constantly wander about to various servers in UT4 when ending up on the "wrong" team since I get more frustrated than enjoyed when that happens so why should I stay when games are mean to be fun, not annoying, I don't wanna play if I know there's no chance in winning.

      At least if Epic doesn't do it I hope some1 else implements it so we can hopefully spread it to as many hubs as possible. It would be the first thing I'd implement if I was the coder guy.
      Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 02-21-2016, 07:43 PM.

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        #33
        Very good points Dementiurge. I hadn't even yet really considered the potential incompatibility of modability and match making. I've also never played a match making system that handled friend groups and community features well, simultaneously. It's kind of become a dichotomy.

        I prefer the community feel. I like knowing a name, and recognizing them as another player I regularly see, and not just seeing a sea of handles that might as well be bots for all I know.

        MMR (ELO) properly implemented could help with team balancing a bit. Even if not forceably, in an indirect fashion through rewarding ELO in a properly weighted fashion. Best way to rack up ELO in UT was fragging guys with better ELO than you. This, in team games, would result in people who were chasing it to align themselves across the field of people with better ELO. Sure, you could stack teams and slow grind ELO in a "safe" fashion, but then if somone with more skill came along, they could fast stack ELO off you.

        I like the ranking idea, and think it can be a useful tool, both as a faux progression model, and as a possible team balancing slash match making assistant, but don't think these things should be forced too hard, for the sake of not inhibiting community and social interaction.

        That said, a healthy population is the most important thing, and features like Match Making, Rankings, Lag compensation, and such aren't in and of themselves a draw. Game (gun) play has to be good.
        Originally posted by Mysterial
        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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          #34
          The guy who wrote about the focus on mechanical skills is spot on. That's the issue with UT, and arena shooters in general. There is a lot to practice (doing the same thing over and over) but very little to discover (trying something new). Compare casual shooters like TF2 or Overwatch, where there are many different characters, each with their own unique weapons and abilities. Just exploring all of those takes days, and when you're bored of one role, you can switch to another, bringing variation that UT simply doesn't have.

          The question is whether arena shooters even belong in 2016, or are a relic of the past. In the last 15 years, the game industry has grown immensely. With the huge selection of games, people rarely invest hundreds of hours in any given game, and arena shooters often don't become enjoyable until you have invested hundreds of hours. That's the challenge UT4 faces.

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            #35
            If you want to reel in the 'casuals' you need to give them a jumping on point which doesn't put any pressure on you. Give them something to get invested in the game, the setting, the mechanics and the characters they're playing.

            I'm thinking about getting involved here to create a singleplayer campaign for UT4, in the same style as UT99/UT2k3. Maybe to give it the form of a sports game, with its own personalities and quirks, rather than the (frankly overblown and horrible) 'story' of UT3. Simple things like, create/choose your character, create/choose a team to join, manage your team, play the matches, and some (simple) cutscenes to punctuate the 'story' and breathe life into the setting. Anyone who has played the UT2k3 alpha: That kind of stuff, but a little more expanded.

            This will provide a solid framework of how an arena shooter works. It lets the casual player get involved at his or her own pace before being thrown to the wolves in multiplayer matches and may move them to stick with it for longer, at least, that's my idea.


            Don't focus too much on the mechanics or details of the game. Those don't interest people to get involved. They want fast, explosive action first and foremost, so you want (imho) an easy jumping on point for that to get them hooked


            Edit: to clarify, everything in the singleplayer section should feed into the multiplayer section. Maps, team sizes, skill progression, leagues, maybe an intermittent 1on1 challenge, things like that. The singleplayer section should NOT be completely disconnected from the multiplayer experience, as was the case in UT3.
            Last edited by MKhrome; 02-22-2016, 09:51 AM.

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              #36
              Originally posted by phantaci View Post
              Not sure about that, we had KBM support on ps3 (UT3). KBM has a learning curve if you aren't used to it. I wanted to quit so many times. It's demoralizing being good with a controller and then coming to PC and having to relearn everything. Right now about 5 players from the console community now play UT4. Myself being one of them. That being said I do not see UT4 on console working. Not sure how they would implement slide or crouching. On console we couldn't crouch with a controller, (not enough buttons).

              I always tell people epic should just make another Unreal Championship and let UC be for console and UT for pc.

              And to see how we managed: you can just watch these videos lol:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSCGn-Ojb2w

              https://www.youtube.com/user/RockleeNinjaPenguin/videos
              Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
              Heh, brings back memories of my Cross-platform petition for UT3. The SQL of the signees is dead now so I won't bother linking to the page but here's what I wrote all dem years ago (nearly 10!)



              So far there's no real reason that I can see to assume there would ever be cross platform for UT4. Why would there be, and how would it work exactly when they already have 3 platforms to support with a skeleton team, and new builds of the game will be coming out on a regular basis for probably a couple of years yet?

              I loved the idea of it for UT3 because the community was small with no hope of change of that whereas our current phase of development and exposure is not even comparable. Second, we had the gametypes already that would have attracted console players (ie vehicular). Right now I just don't see the same appeal. Even the camping style play I mentioned, with snipers, would work far better for console than what we have now. Larger models, slower shots or not... all I see there is them trying to find the right balance of "feel" for most people and they finally recognized that it was off, people called out player model size repeatedly for years.

              Not that it wouldn't be fun to see an experiment like that, but don't get your hopes up.
              I've got a good reply in mind for both of you, but do not have the mental capacity to write right now
              Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

              Comment


                #37
                Had a quick look at Warsow as I wanted to download a copy:


                35 players online....

                From their website:
                The most fast-paced sport on the web!
                Set in a futuristic cartoonish world, Warsow is a completely free fast-paced first-person shooter (FPS) for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X.
                Warsow Advocates Respect and Sportsmanship Over the Web.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by richardboegli; 02-22-2016, 11:36 AM.
                Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                Comment


                  #38
                  Halo 5 is the most up to date multiplayer FPS game on the market as we speak. When the first game came out, it wasn't a dumbed down version of Quake or UT. If Quake and UT were on the left side, Halo went to the right side. It was less dexterity intensive, true, but it focused on the proper addition of vehicles, proper sandbox-like level design with decent AI and improved combat mechanics including:
                  - Strafing
                  - Jumping
                  - Crouch jumping
                  - Shooting
                  - Grenade
                  - Melee
                  - Backstab

                  Now Halo 5 is almost bridging the old generation with the latest with the proper addition of a dodge (thruster pack?). Critics and players, now that they've played with it, can hardly conceive how they could go back to a Halo game without the dodge feature. Well, the same way that it's really hard for those players how they could play now a game as feature rich as Halo 5. Gears of War was a step forward in a way and UT is a step back.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                    Halo 5 is the most up to date multiplayer FPS game on the market as we speak.
                    Halo 5 will also be getting ESPN coverage.

                    While I haven't played the Halo series much as no kbd/mouse, a few people I know dislike Halo 5. They believe the play style is a regression from its former glory. It is basically a COD clone.

                    Paraphrasing a quote I heard: "Halo 5 is COD with space marines."
                    Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by VfourA View Post
                      If you want to reel in the 'casuals' you need to give them a jumping on point which doesn't put any pressure on you. Give them something to get invested in the game, the setting, the mechanics and the characters they're playing.

                      I'm thinking about getting involved here to create a singleplayer campaign for UT4, in the same style as UT99/UT2k3. Maybe to give it the form of a sports game, with its own personalities and quirks, rather than the (frankly overblown and horrible) 'story' of UT3. Simple things like, create/choose your character, create/choose a team to join, manage your team, play the matches, and some (simple) cutscenes to punctuate the 'story' and breathe life into the setting. Anyone who has played the UT2k3 alpha: That kind of stuff, but a little more expanded.

                      This will provide a solid framework of how an arena shooter works. It lets the casual player get involved at his or her own pace before being thrown to the wolves in multiplayer matches and may move them to stick with it for longer, at least, that's my idea.


                      Don't focus too much on the mechanics or details of the game. Those don't interest people to get involved. They want fast, explosive action first and foremost, so you want (imho) an easy jumping on point for that to get them hooked


                      Edit: to clarify, everything in the singleplayer section should feed into the multiplayer section. Maps, team sizes, skill progression, leagues, maybe an intermittent 1on1 challenge, things like that. The singleplayer section should NOT be completely disconnected from the multiplayer experience, as was the case in UT3.
                      Blowing up stuff while learning mechanics.

                      I've been thinking in this space as well.

                      Closets thing that might be of interest is a monster mode. See this thread: 'Concept Art Unreal Universe Monsters! Lets make some art together!'
                      Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Halo 5 is definitely NOT COD with spacemarines. My point is, we should stop looking at Quake and UT as ''Arena shooter games separated from all other FPS games'' because they aren't. Any game could be turned into an Arena Shooter with a gametype. Invasion without melee or gadgets or else will get quickly boring no matter what. Same for spectators watching a UT game.

                        Still, I'm conscious that Epic might have a different agenda and might just want to create that old classic UT game with next gen graphics to showcase UE4 or else. But I'm convinced that if Epic wants UT to succeed, this game has to beat the core gameplay features of Halo 5.

                        Edited:
                        It also takes a judgement call. A game like UT doesn't need climbing mechanics.
                        Last edited by 3Dmatic; 02-22-2016, 03:52 PM.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                          Halo 5 is definitely NOT COD with spacemarines. My point is, we should stop looking at Quake and UT as ''Arena shooter games separated from all other FPS games'' because they aren't. Any game could be turned into an Arena Shooter with a gametype. Invasion without melee or gadgets or else will get quickly boring no matter what. Same for spectators watching a UT game.
                          I get where you are going with this

                          Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                          Still, I'm conscious that Epic might have a different agenda and might just want to create that old classic UT game with next gen graphics to showcase UE4 or else. But I'm convinced that if Epic wants UT to succeed, this game has to beat the core gameplay features of Halo 5.
                          While we can all speculate as to what the Real purpose of Unreal Tournament 4 being free is? Monetization, Marketing &/or X??

                          "Time will tell, sooner or later time will tell."

                          Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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                            #43
                            Perhaps the game needs a co-op game type to appeal to newer players without the stress of fighting against long time veterans? Maybe Invasion or some other game type. Many difficult competitive games (DOTA2, Heroes of the Storm, others) have a human vs AI mode that is a lot more friendly to newer players. It'll allow them to learn basic mechanics without getting killed within 2 seconds of spawning and getting frustrated.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Podosniper View Post
                              Perhaps the game needs a co-op game type to appeal to newer players without the stress of fighting against long time veterans? Maybe Invasion or some other game type. Many difficult competitive games (DOTA2, Heroes of the Storm, others) have a human vs AI mode that is a lot more friendly to newer players. It'll allow them to learn basic mechanics without getting killed within 2 seconds of spawning and getting frustrated.
                              Bingo! This inspired me to think of this: Truel coop - One high rank player vs Two lower rank players

                              A truel is a neologism for a duel among three opponents, in which players can fire at one another in an attempt to eliminate them while surviving themselves.[1]

                              While this could be achieve already in TDM, this gamemode is specifically setup for matchmaking; matching a high rank player against two lower rank players.

                              It would help increase the lower rank players skill by observing how a higher rank player plays first hand.
                              Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                                Bingo! This inspired me to think of this: Truel coop - One high rank player vs Two lower rank players

                                A truel is a neologism for a duel among three opponents, in which players can fire at one another in an attempt to eliminate them while surviving themselves.[1]

                                While this could be achieve already in TDM, this gamemode is specifically setup for matchmaking; matching a high rank player against two lower rank players.

                                It would help increase the lower rank players skill by observing how a higher rank player plays first hand.
                                I always enjoyed mutant even though nobody played it lol. This idea is similar.

                                I also have a mutator idea to simplify the game for newer players while allowing veterans to play with them on a more even playing field. Not sure I'll find the time to work on it though. Basically it removes non weapon or ammo pickups then buffs players doing poorly with those pickups(health, armor, udamage, belt, whatever) to even the playing field more. More challenge for veterans, easier for newer players. Obviously not a fit for competitive play but it can make it easier for newer players to get in to the game and allow veterans to bring in their friends to the game and play together without it being boring for the vet or frustrating for the new player. It would also teach newer players the value of those pickups.
                                Last edited by Podosniper; 02-22-2016, 03:21 PM.

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