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    #61
    Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
    So this is just progression with bots? Just like every UT game before hand?

    Not saying its a bad thing, its just more of the same.

    Unless I'm missing something?
    Basically yes, but personally i want to wrap it into a more appealing form this time around.

    UT99, 2k3 and 2k4 were barebones at best in their singleplayer campaigns. There was no real guidance, reason or rhyme to them, the one thing they got right though was the concept of 'unreal tournament' itself - It's a brutal sport in the far future.

    I think you can make it feel extremely fresh by exploiting this to the max.

    You create or choose a character. You're placed as a newbie in the league and are expected to work your way up, from the lower leagues all the way to the championship.

    Along the way you, at first, join an existing team, probably based on your character. As you go up, teams get less focused on where they're from and more about pure skill, eventually leaving your old team (cue cutscene here showing some internal conflict) and creating your own, using your rising star as an attraction for others to join to eventually take the ultimate championship.

    The first few events would be about explanation. After creation, you are pitted against one bot, an initiation match for the team you want to join. This can also be used to determine the skill level of the player, roughly, for the campaign.

    After this, your team goes through lower league matches. TDM, CTF, maybe assault/onslaught punctuated with a few 'battle royale' DM matches where the player can shine individually.

    Eventually, the player gets more recognition and starts getting offers to join another team, though in true sports-movie style they only want to recruit you to keep you on the bench and out of the competition (cue the evil germans from Cool Runnings). Your old team is growing distant because of your increasing skill, they feel left behind and kind of want you gone as well.

    So, through some harsh times, the player forms their own team. Here the team management part starts, as well as a possible multiplayer tie-in. Pick other bots to join your team and start going through the leagues again, but this time, you get promoted. You start getting official 1on1 challenges from other bot team leaders or lone wolves, which may result in new rivalries or teammates, or another relationship with the character you fought.

    Important here is one thing: You don't need to win EVERYTHING to progress, like in older games. Everything goes via leagues, which you need to win overall to progress, but you can lose individual matches, including the 1on1's. There should be more than one 'league', or season, to go through. You can even think of letting a player lose a league, but simply continuing in the next season for another chance at a promotion.

    Secondly, this middle part of the campaign (forming your own team) also serves as a jump-in point for multiplayer, this game's co-op mode to be precise. You can invite friends to play through those matches with you on the same team! This forms, in my opinion, the perfect initiation for UT multiplayer.

    The last part of the campaign happens when your team qualifies for the final championship. No leagues, but a bracket championship. In world it might be something that happens once every 10 years, where only the very best teams and players are elegible to join. Here the player DOES need to win every match to progress. I'm still thinking about whether this should be a stage of the game where reloading saves is a valid way to progress, or where if the team drops out, they can simply go through the leagues again for another chance next time.

    This last bit has all the rivalries, friendships and other events from earlier parts come up again. Characters the player knows return, rivalries are turned up to 11 with a lot of smacktalk or even 'unsanctioned' matches for bets in between the main event, etc. - The final match is actually a series of matches in all the main gameforms, culminating in a final one on one with your main rival to determine the winner (maybe on Hyperblast?). Maybe not Xan though.

    Of course, this last tournament stage is also co-op-able. You could even think about replacing some opponent teams with actual players who are also going through the campaign!


    IMHO, the above needs to be refined obviously, but it would serve as the perfect singleplayer campaign to UT, and a perfect intro to the classic UT multiplayer modes. With regards to previous games, honestly, they didn't have a singleplayer mode worth talking about, so i don't count this as a rehash 'of the same' because of the added depth and story, but rather than going the insane UT3 route of 'wtf is this', UT4 should have a campaign that properly ties into how the game works while still being fun for newbies to sink their teeth into.

    And, as far as i know, a game like the above has never existed, at least not within a shooter framework. I'm not talking about a random string of levels the player has to absolve with bots, i'm talking about a campaign to get the newbies invested in the franchise, and to have them understand how the game works and what it's about while at the same time giving them an honestly good singleplayer and co-op experience.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by VfourA View Post
      Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
      So this is just progression with bots? Just like every UT game before hand?

      Not saying its a bad thing, its just more of the same.

      Unless I'm missing something?

      Basically yes, but personally i want to wrap it into a more appealing form this time around.

      UT99, 2k3 and 2k4 were barebones at best in their singleplayer campaigns. There was no real guidance, reason or rhyme to them, the one thing they got right though was the concept of 'unreal tournament' itself - It's a brutal sport in the far future.

      I think you can make it feel extremely fresh by exploiting this to the max.

      You create or choose a character. You're placed as a newbie in the league and are expected to work your way up, from the lower leagues all the way to the championship.

      Along the way you, at first, join an existing team, probably based on your character. As you go up, teams get less focused on where they're from and more about pure skill, eventually leaving your old team (cue cutscene here showing some internal conflict) and creating your own, using your rising star as an attraction for others to join to eventually take the ultimate championship.

      The first few events would be about explanation. After creation, you are pitted against one bot, an initiation match for the team you want to join. This can also be used to determine the skill level of the player, roughly, for the campaign.

      After this, your team goes through lower league matches. TDM, CTF, maybe assault/onslaught punctuated with a few 'battle royale' DM matches where the player can shine individually.

      Eventually, the player gets more recognition and starts getting offers to join another team, though in true sports-movie style they only want to recruit you to keep you on the bench and out of the competition (cue the evil germans from Cool Runnings). Your old team is growing distant because of your increasing skill, they feel left behind and kind of want you gone as well.

      So, through some harsh times, the player forms their own team. Here the team management part starts, as well as a possible multiplayer tie-in. Pick other bots to join your team and start going through the leagues again, but this time, you get promoted. You start getting official 1on1 challenges from other bot team leaders or lone wolves, which may result in new rivalries or teammates, or another relationship with the character you fought.

      Important here is one thing: You don't need to win EVERYTHING to progress, like in older games. Everything goes via leagues, which you need to win overall to progress, but you can lose individual matches, including the 1on1's. There should be more than one 'league', or season, to go through. You can even think of letting a player lose a league, but simply continuing in the next season for another chance at a promotion.

      Secondly, this middle part of the campaign (forming your own team) also serves as a jump-in point for multiplayer, this game's co-op mode to be precise. You can invite friends to play through those matches with you on the same team! This forms, in my opinion, the perfect initiation for UT multiplayer.

      The last part of the campaign happens when your team qualifies for the final championship. No leagues, but a bracket championship. In world it might be something that happens once every 10 years, where only the very best teams and players are elegible to join. Here the player DOES need to win every match to progress. I'm still thinking about whether this should be a stage of the game where reloading saves is a valid way to progress, or where if the team drops out, they can simply go through the leagues again for another chance next time.

      This last bit has all the rivalries, friendships and other events from earlier parts come up again. Characters the player knows return, rivalries are turned up to 11 with a lot of smacktalk or even 'unsanctioned' matches for bets in between the main event, etc. - The final match is actually a series of matches in all the main gameforms, culminating in a final one on one with your main rival to determine the winner (maybe on Hyperblast?). Maybe not Xan though.

      Of course, this last tournament stage is also co-op-able. You could even think about replacing some opponent teams with actual players who are also going through the campaign!


      IMHO, the above needs to be refined obviously, but it would serve as the perfect singleplayer campaign to UT, and a perfect intro to the classic UT multiplayer modes. With regards to previous games, honestly, they didn't have a singleplayer mode worth talking about, so i don't count this as a rehash 'of the same' because of the added depth and story, but rather than going the insane UT3 route of 'wtf is this', UT4 should have a campaign that properly ties into how the game works while still being fun for newbies to sink their teeth into.

      And, as far as i know, a game like the above has never existed, at least not within a shooter framework. I'm not talking about a random string of levels the player has to absolve with bots, i'm talking about a campaign to get the newbies invested in the franchise, and to have them understand how the game works and what it's about while at the same time giving them an honestly good singleplayer and co-op experience.
      One word: AWESOME.

      Well done! I really like the idea.

      Given the marketplace nature of UT, this could be done and doesn't actually have to be done by Epic.

      I like the idea of the true sports-movie style and rivalries turned up to 11 So there is a bit of persistence through you playing through. In the sense that, if you've beaten a certain bot previously, they will be at a harder level next time round. For laughs have a montage of them training hard to beat you...cue *Eye of the Tiger*

      Not having linear gameplay with side elements does help in terms of entertainment.

      I'm going to read it again and think about what you've put forward and provide some more feedback in a day or two.
      Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

      Comment


        #63
        I agree. This is the kind of thing that I always thought it should be. Your tutorial is you in another team and then you get to create your own. A league allows the single player to last longer and a "Champions League" kind of cup at the end to actually complete the single player.

        A bit like Speedball 2.

        I'd be very pleased if this was implemented.
        Current Main Issues: Tri-Rox (Remove), Scoreboards lack player stats,Team Balance.

        My Pre-Alpha Highlights 2016 to early 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlKQ349o8A | http://plays.tv/u/Smurgl

        Comment


          #64
          It needs more gametypes imho.

          I loved Onslaught. But I can play DM - if I feel like it.

          DM demands a different level of concentration as everyone here knows it's intense in a way ONS/WAR doesn't have to be. You can chill out in ONS -switch to a vehicle ,camp, become a sniper for awhile. I'd imagine most of us are knackered after a hard day at work . The idea of DM doesn't always appeal.
          Last edited by Phoenix75; 02-24-2016, 07:59 PM.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Phoenix75 View Post
            It needs more gametypes imho.

            Ok disclaimer: I loved Onslaught. But I can play DM - if I feel like it.

            But DM demands a different level of concentration, it's fairly intense in a way ONS/WAR doesn't have to be. You can chill out in ONS -switch to a vehicle camp, become a sniper for awhile. I'd imagine most of us are knackered after a hard day at work . The idea of DM doesn't always appeal.

            I agree that vehicles are really fun, and if Epic were to integrate them into UT as tightly as Halo does, it would be awesome, but if you look at all the most successful competitive titles, we're talking the multi-million-dollar blockbuster online FPS titles, they actually have fewer gametypes, not more. CS really only has one gametype with some really subtle variations, Team Fortress is pretty much a handful of gametypes and they are all pretty much the same exact game with different team objectives: no translocator or weapon variations.

            essentially, consistency is key.

            Comment


              #66
              I agree, insomuch as doing one thing really well is usually the key to success.

              But look at UT2004 reviews(and review scores), the gaming press were blown away by ONS. I still remember DL'ing that ONS demo(Torlan & Primeval) and then ordering the game instantly. Did I play vanilla DM? Sure, but ONS wowed me. What in UT4 is going to wow people? Because trying to excite people with DM and they'll say meh. Every game these days seems to have the cursory DM mode thrown in and most people have already played DM and decided whether they enjoy that gametype per se, and overcoming those preconceptions can be a hurdle. This UT needs to differentiate itself somehow.

              It needn't be a zero-sum game by introducing a gametype that welcomes those who typically avoid DM. Right now UT needs players, lots of players, many of those will probably spill over into DM.
              Last edited by Phoenix75; 02-24-2016, 08:40 PM.

              Comment


                #67
                Love how only one person bothered to respond to my post. It's like the UT community refuses to accept the reality that change has to happen. Making it a pure arena shooter is suicide. I guess whatever helps them sleep at night with the knowledge that UT will stay the same forever and ever... no adapting to changes in the market or common sense...

                Comment


                  #68
                  For me, a remake of the assault game mode would be a good enough initial wow-factor.
                  Rawr1234 on Unreal Tournament play-test servers and IRC!

                  Comment


                    #69
                    An arena shooter is what UT is. I get it, the assets are cool, and fans of other games would love to see some crossover action, but at the end of the day UT's appeal for it's hardcore fans goes far beyond cool weapons and story line.

                    I'd have no problem with people making off shoots, or spin offs, like Unreal Warfare, or Unreal Onslaught, but I don't even think those game types belonged as game types under the Tournament title.

                    The idea of attracting new players is to the Arena genre. You can't attract new players to Arena shooters by making a non-Arena shooter. If the genre is dead, than so be it. I, in no shape, form, or fashion, think this game should "sell out" and try to compete with major market title numbers.
                    Originally posted by Mysterial
                    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                      An arena shooter is what UT is. I get it, the assets are cool, and fans of other games would love to see some crossover action, but at the end of the day UT's appeal for it's hardcore fans goes far beyond cool weapons and story line.

                      I'd have no problem with people making off shoots, or spin offs, like Unreal Warfare, or Unreal Onslaught, but I don't even think those game types belonged as game types under the Tournament title.

                      The idea of attracting new players is to the Arena genre. You can't attract new players to Arena shooters by making a non-Arena shooter. If the genre is dead, than so be it. I, in no shape, form, or fashion, think this game should "sell out" and try to compete with major market title numbers.
                      I actually REALLY REALLY agree with this.

                      Consistency is key, if you want to sell a car, don't tell everyone how good of a truck it could be. Don't try to make it like a bike, or a boat: its a car. make it a good car.

                      UT is an arena shooter. Don't try to make it like a tactical shooter or a MOBA, make it a good arena shooter.

                      That said, there is nothing wrong with adapting ideas to fit the arena formula *cough*per-weapon-one-button-melee-attacks*cough* but trying to change UT at its core is only going to end in tears.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Artaneius View Post
                        "Lol get good, noob"

                        Sure, but why? Why when I can play other games that make me want to play even when I get my *** handed to me? Why waste my time trying to 'get gud' in a game that is not at all enjoyable, when I could put in hours in a game that I actually have fun with? It has nothing to do with skill, it has everything to do with game feel.

                        The question is whether arena shooters even belong in 2016, or are a relic of the past. In the last 15 years, the game industry has grown immensely. With the huge selection of games, people rarely invest hundreds of hours in any given game, and arena shooters often don't become enjoyable until you have invested hundreds of hours. That's the challenge UT4 faces.


                        These two quotes are basically the bottom line and the final nail in the coffin about this debate. In my honest opinion I see very little hope for UT4 unless something is done to make it where it isn't a pure arena shooter. I have a reality based question for each person reading this. If cod 4 and UT came out at the exact same time, and they had the same graphics. Would you honestly say you would of picked UT over CoD? If you had the option of playing a shooter that didn't require you to dedicate your life to being good at at that time... Most of you would of went to CoD. Why? Because its common sense. You play the game that rewards you the most. This is the bottom line for the majority of players. Either UT community accepts this reality, or scrap the project.
                        Originally posted by Artaneius View Post
                        Love how only one person bothered to respond to my post. It's like the UT community refuses to accept the reality that change has to happen. Making it a pure arena shooter is suicide. I guess whatever helps them sleep at night with the knowledge that UT will stay the same forever and ever... no adapting to changes in the market or common sense...
                        I'd seen your post but couldn't think of anything to add at the time as I was about to sleep. I actually haven't replied to you and a few more, but I'll respond with something meaningful shortly.
                        Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
                          That said, there is nothing wrong with adapting ideas to fit the arena formula *cough*per-weapon-one-button-melee-attacks*cough* but trying to change UT at its core is only going to end in tears.
                          I always liked that about Halo. Not just the melee, but what it lacked in "carry 10 guns at the same time" it seemed to make up for "5 different attacks at your immediate disposal." Weapon specific melee being one of them.

                          The more I think about the IH, the more it wears poorly on me. Something about having to charge it really limits it's versatility, but I can't think of a way to eliminate the charge mechanic and still make it balanced. Also the current alt parry is absolutely nothing like I envisioned it would be. Of course, neither are the speed of the projectiles it sets out to block.
                          Originally posted by Mysterial
                          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                            One word: AWESOME.

                            Well done! I really like the idea.

                            Given the marketplace nature of UT, this could be done and doesn't actually have to be done by Epic.

                            I like the idea of the true sports-movie style and rivalries turned up to 11 So there is a bit of persistence through you playing through. In the sense that, if you've beaten a certain bot previously, they will be at a harder level next time round. For laughs have a montage of them training hard to beat you...cue *Eye of the Tiger*

                            Not having linear gameplay with side elements does help in terms of entertainment.

                            I'm going to read it again and think about what you've put forward and provide some more feedback in a day or two.
                            I'm seriously thinking of making this into an actual project. I've been hoping for a mode like this since i played the ut2k3 alpha, but sadly Epic never made it themselves...

                            Originally posted by Smurgl View Post
                            I agree. This is the kind of thing that I always thought it should be. Your tutorial is you in another team and then you get to create your own. A league allows the single player to last longer and a "Champions League" kind of cup at the end to actually complete the single player.

                            A bit like Speedball 2.

                            I'd be very pleased if this was implemented.
                            If the newbies can get invested in a good campaign to draw them in without competitive mp pressure you can get a lot more people into it than if you just throw them into an mp only experience. IMHO, while UT99's singleplayer was lacking, it did actually provide that stepping stone, just like the 2k3 and 2k4 versions. UT3 failed in this because the campaign was so disconnected from the rest of the game.

                            Maybe we should brainstorm about this somewhere to create a more defined proposal and get official approval/backing for this

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by VfourA View Post

                              Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                              So this is just progression with bots? Just like every UT game before hand?

                              Not saying its a bad thing, its just more of the same.

                              Unless I'm missing something?
                              Basically yes, but personally i want to wrap it into a more appealing form this time around.

                              UT99, 2k3 and 2k4 were barebones at best in their singleplayer campaigns. There was no real guidance, reason or rhyme to them, the one thing they got right though was the concept of 'unreal tournament' itself - It's a brutal sport in the far future.

                              I think you can make it feel extremely fresh by exploiting this to the max.

                              You create or choose a character. You're placed as a newbie in the league and are expected to work your way up, from the lower leagues all the way to the championship.

                              Along the way you, at first, join an existing team, probably based on your character. As you go up, teams get less focused on where they're from and more about pure skill, eventually leaving your old team (cue cutscene here showing some internal conflict) and creating your own, using your rising star as an attraction for others to join to eventually take the ultimate championship.

                              The first few events would be about explanation. After creation, you are pitted against one bot, an initiation match for the team you want to join. This can also be used to determine the skill level of the player, roughly, for the campaign.

                              After this, your team goes through lower league matches. TDM, CTF, maybe assault/onslaught punctuated with a few 'battle royale' DM matches where the player can shine individually.

                              Eventually, the player gets more recognition and starts getting offers to join another team, though in true sports-movie style they only want to recruit you to keep you on the bench and out of the competition (cue the evil germans from Cool Runnings). Your old team is growing distant because of your increasing skill, they feel left behind and kind of want you gone as well.

                              So, through some harsh times, the player forms their own team. Here the team management part starts, as well as a possible multiplayer tie-in. Pick other bots to join your team and start going through the leagues again, but this time, you get promoted. You start getting official 1on1 challenges from other bot team leaders or lone wolves, which may result in new rivalries or teammates, or another relationship with the character you fought.

                              Important here is one thing: You don't need to win EVERYTHING to progress, like in older games. Everything goes via leagues, which you need to win overall to progress, but you can lose individual matches, including the 1on1's. There should be more than one 'league', or season, to go through. You can even think of letting a player lose a league, but simply continuing in the next season for another chance at a promotion.

                              Secondly, this middle part of the campaign (forming your own team) also serves as a jump-in point for multiplayer, this game's co-op mode to be precise. You can invite friends to play through those matches with you on the same team! This forms, in my opinion, the perfect initiation for UT multiplayer.

                              The last part of the campaign happens when your team qualifies for the final championship. No leagues, but a bracket championship. In world it might be something that happens once every 10 years, where only the very best teams and players are elegible to join. Here the player DOES need to win every match to progress. I'm still thinking about whether this should be a stage of the game where reloading saves is a valid way to progress, or where if the team drops out, they can simply go through the leagues again for another chance next time.

                              This last bit has all the rivalries, friendships and other events from earlier parts come up again. Characters the player knows return, rivalries are turned up to 11 with a lot of smacktalk or even 'unsanctioned' matches for bets in between the main event, etc. - The final match is actually a series of matches in all the main gameforms, culminating in a final one on one with your main rival to determine the winner (maybe on Hyperblast?). Maybe not Xan though.

                              Of course, this last tournament stage is also co-op-able. You could even think about replacing some opponent teams with actual players who are also going through the campaign!


                              IMHO, the above needs to be refined obviously, but it would serve as the perfect singleplayer campaign to UT, and a perfect intro to the classic UT multiplayer modes. With regards to previous games, honestly, they didn't have a singleplayer mode worth talking about, so i don't count this as a rehash 'of the same' because of the added depth and story, but rather than going the insane UT3 route of 'wtf is this', UT4 should have a campaign that properly ties into how the game works while still being fun for newbies to sink their teeth into.

                              And, as far as i know, a game like the above has never existed, at least not within a shooter framework. I'm not talking about a random string of levels the player has to absolve with bots, i'm talking about a campaign to get the newbies invested in the franchise, and to have them understand how the game works and what it's about while at the same time giving them an honestly good singleplayer and co-op experience.
                              This post below was a response to VfourA post above, I emailed it to him to get his feedback as he doesn't currently follow UT4 development dirextly and I'm trying to see how to bring onboard more console centric players.

                              A bit of background, my friend (PSN Mkatronix) is a long time gamer in FPS and other genres who was originally a PC Gamer, but has played primarily on consoles for the last two generations (PS3, PS Vita and PS4) with a few PC titles in-between.

                              We played A LOT of Destiny back in 2014, when I had a break from UT4.
                              Disclaimer: When he wrote this he was a bit sleep deprived as he has a cold and is a new father, but I think he has nailed the thread topic.

                              So without further ado:

                              Building on what the response suggested, for super advanced players, you could include an epic hardcore mode where once your character loses a match, they're wiped & you start from scratch. As if they have died in contest.

                              As for attracting non arena fps gamers, what about taking the rpg angle? Allowing character growth or weapon & ability aquisition. Earn credits to upgrade equipment. Customise your character, etc. Perhaps a challenge system of some sort. You can beat the level like normal or you can only use a pistol to beat a challenge for bonus points. (Pretty much what the response was saying).

                              I believe, people love games where they can keep coming back to play things that seem different. Scratch the surface and it's the same thing over & over again, but it feels different so they don't notice (see Destiny, WoW and CoD). The problem with areana fps (for non areana fps players) is that the 'story' mode doesn't so enough to hide the fact you're playing the same arenas again & again but against different bots. I hate to use this example again, but Destiny is basically an arena fps. The arenas are a bit bigger, but the story missions lock the player into only a small portion of them, again and again and again. Players don't notice because the situation masks reality.

                              Whatever direction the genre chooses to follow, the most important thing, above all else, is that it must stay true to it's origins. Too much change in the wrong way will alienate the loyal fan base. It may not even bring in the new players to sustain it. It would fade and dissappear into nothingness. The current generation of new gamers probably don't realise that we all owe a lot to the original arena fps games. Without them we wouldn't have CoD or Destiny or Fallout or Borderlands or Halo or *insert infinite examples here*. Whatever game is your poison now, chances are the guys who created it grew up playing an arena fps.
                              Last edited by richardboegli; 02-25-2016, 12:25 PM. Reason: wordcraft on my intro
                              Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

                              Comment


                                #75
                                As promised Artaneius see below

                                Originally posted by Artaneius View Post
                                "Lol get good, noob"
                                Sure, but why? Why when I can play other games that make me want to play even when I get my *** handed to me? Why waste my time trying to 'get gud' in a game that is not at all enjoyable, when I could put in hours in a game that I actually have fun with? It has nothing to do with skill, it has everything to do with game feel.
                                Yes and No.
                                Different gamers define a game as being enjoyable based on different metrics.
                                Some people love to grind and train hard to get good at it and find this fun.
                                Some just like to jump in and blow stuff up to have fun.
                                I don't find a game like Candy Crush enjoyable, but clearly there is a market for it.

                                Trying to cater to everyone is the billion dollar question.
                                Pick a market and target it; going redeemer and trying to get everyone is A LOT harder. Not that it cannot be done, but it is harder and costs more.

                                UT4 wants to be an esport game. Just like any sport, you get good so that you have more fun playing against others.


                                Originally posted by Artaneius View Post

                                The question is whether arena shooters even belong in 2016, or are a relic of the past. In the last 15 years, the game industry has grown immensely. With the huge selection of games, people rarely invest hundreds of hours in any given game, and arena shooters often don't become enjoyable until you have invested hundreds of hours. That's the challenge UT4 faces.
                                I think arena shooters still belong. Just like email, it'll be around forever

                                Once you get "good" at it, this is a skill you retain to a certain extent.
                                Weapons, maps and other attributes can change, but if you have aimbot like aim these other elements can be learned. Obviously if you want to play professional then there is a lot more to learn when jumping between games, but the fundamentals are the same. Point, Click, Kill.

                                UT4 is a showcase of how AWESOME the UE4 engine is, how a triple AAA title can be made with such a small dev team and how powerful a long running franchise can be (which is apparent by the activity on this forum, other social media, websites etc....)

                                So UT4 doesn't have to be a "success" in the traditional sense for it to succeed in what Epic is trying to achieve. See my thread: Real purpose of Unreal Tournament 4 being free is? Monetization, Marketing &/or X??

                                Gaming may evolve, but certain elements remain constant and new generations of players come into the mix. For example, Mario turned 30 last year. This is primarily just a platformer game and it still belongs.

                                Originally posted by Artaneius View Post

                                These two quotes are basically the bottom line and the final nail in the coffin about this debate. In my honest opinion I see very little hope for UT4 unless something is done to make it where it isn't a pure arena shooter.
                                Being a free game with a marketplace will allow for others to build off Epic's platform which is UT4.
                                The core movement mechanic is coming along nicely and UE4 is free which just makes it easier.

                                Originally posted by Artaneius View Post
                                I have a reality based question for each person reading this. If cod 4 and UT came out at the exact same time, and they had the same graphics. Would you honestly say you would of picked UT over CoD? If you had the option of playing a shooter that didn't require you to dedicate your life to being good at at that time... Most of you would of went to CoD. Why? Because its common sense. You play the game that rewards you the most. This is the bottom line for the majority of players. Either UT community accepts this reality, or scrap the project.
                                This is a great question which I'd love to be able to answer, but I haven't played COD4 as I was on a gaming sabbatical.
                                "You play the game that rewards you the most." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

                                A bit of background, my friends and I had been long time AQ2 (Action Quake 2), Half-Life and Counterstrike players when Q3Arena demo had been released and we'd been playing that. Then UT99 Demo came along. We'd played Assault AS-HiSpeed and we were hooked.

                                Originally posted by Artaneius View Post
                                Love how only one person bothered to respond to my post. It's like the UT community refuses to accept the reality that change has to happen. Making it a pure arena shooter is suicide. I guess whatever helps them sleep at night with the knowledge that UT will stay the same forever and ever... no adapting to changes in the market or common sense...
                                So there is my first pass comments on your post.
                                In summary, I agree that there is stiff competition in the marketplace for a pure arena shooter, but in the end it doesn't really matter as UT4 will shivering what it is always there to achieve, a showcase for the engine.

                                If I've missed something or think of something else I'll do another post.
                                Last edited by richardboegli; 02-25-2016, 01:11 PM. Reason: punctuation! go semicolon go!
                                Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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