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What would make people play arena FPS games again. Thoughts from non arenafps players

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    #76
    Most FPS players don't care whether UT is an Arena FPS or not, they just want to play a good FPS that is worth investing their time in. Sure, players can potentially carry 10 guns and switch between all of them, but that's just not how we play UT. The player starts with the Enforcer. Right from the start, the game isn't at its full potential. The player needs to run around and acquire those weapons from dead players or weapon pickups. It takes time and sure can become quickly very repetitive and it's also more likely that players will die before acquiring more than 4 weapons. And the Udamage or Invisiblity won't make the combat mechanics greater, instead.... those items will diminish the quality of the combat mechanics in the attempt to add long term strategy.

    Halo counters that issue by allowing players to use 2 guns + melee/backstab + grenades + weapons on map + power weapons on map to maintain an acceptable and consistent level of variety and interactivity, to keep players engaged. UT is based on an outdated gameplay formula that is flawed and broken, that seriously needs an update. And obviously, it's better if players can carry more than 2 guns.

    In other words, the current Arena Shooter format of UT is unable to make up for the lack of interactivity/engagement that can be found in other FPS games the players have played during the past 15 years which unfortunately makes UT feel boring to play in comparison.
    Last edited by 3Dmatic; 02-25-2016, 02:19 PM.

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      #77
      Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
      Most FPS players don't care whether UT is an Arena FPS or not, they just want to play a good FPS that is worth investing their time in. Sure, players can potentially carry 10 guns and switch between all of them, but that's just not how we play UT. The player starts with the Enforcer. Right from the start, the game isn't at its full potential. The player needs to run around and acquire those weapons from dead players or weapon pickups. It takes time and sure can become quickly very repetitive and it's also more likely that players will die before acquiring more than 4 weapons. And the Udamage or Invisiblity won't make the combat mechanics greater, instead.... those items will diminish the quality of the combat mechanics in the attempt to add long term strategy.

      Halo counters that issue by allowing players to use 2 guns + melee/backstab + grenades + weapons on map + power weapons on map to maintain an acceptable and consistent level of variety and interactivity, to keep players engaged. UT is based on an outdated gameplay formula that is flawed and broken, that seriously needs an update. And obviously, it's better if players can carry more than 2 guns.

      In other words, the current Arena Shooter format of UT is unable to make up for the lack of interactivity/engagement that can be found in other FPS games the players have played during the past 15 years which unfortunately makes UT feel boring to play in comparison.
      This is why I like TAM / LTS so much and I thank Vlad for bringing it into UT4: Last Team Standing (Next TAM/BTA)

      Start with everything, don't waste time picking things up and play rounds in Team DeathMatch.

      It does suck when you die early on and have to spectate, but there are ways around this, but this wouldn't be traditional TAM / LTS and could be fixed using other methods if required.

      I never played TAM / LTS in older UT's, but played Q3Arena Promode (Challenge ProMode Arena), which had the same mechanics and removed self-inflicted splash damage.

      I think having TAM / LTS as a default gamemode would be great, but given the marketplace setup, it doesn't have to be.

      People are invited by friends to play, they join a server, it downloads it for them the first time.

      Easy....
      Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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        #78
        The new DOOM is really the best new FPS which would be closet to UT4.

        How it succeeds or fails in multiplayer should be watched closely.
        Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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          #79
          Originally posted by heartlessphil View Post
          For me, a remake of the assault game mode would be a good enough initial wow-factor.
          Funnily enough this was the exact WOW factor that drew me in back in 1999 when UT99 Demo was released

          There is already a playable version of Assault for UT4
          Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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            #80
            Originally posted by VfourA View Post
            I'm seriously thinking of making this into an actual project. I've been hoping for a mode like this since i played the ut2k3 alpha, but sadly Epic never made it themselves...

            If the newbies can get invested in a good campaign to draw them in without competitive mp pressure you can get a lot more people into it than if you just throw them into an mp only experience. IMHO, while UT99's singleplayer was lacking, it did actually provide that stepping stone, just like the 2k3 and 2k4 versions. UT3 failed in this because the campaign was so disconnected from the rest of the game.

            Maybe we should brainstorm about this somewhere to create a more defined proposal and get official approval/backing for this
            Thread created here: Campaign Mode - To help draw in new players
            Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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              #81
              Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
              That said, there is nothing wrong with adapting ideas to fit the arena formula *cough*per-weapon-one-button-melee-attacks*cough* but trying to change UT at its core is only going to end in tears.
              I've been thinking about something like this before:MUTATOR Butt Melee

              But (no pun intended) I think the easiest to achieve this would be: MUTATOR - Dodge Kick Melee as it doesn't introduce a new key and animation for each weapon.
              Last edited by richardboegli; 02-25-2016, 09:46 PM.
              Another crazy idea brought to you by richardboegli ;P

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                #82
                Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                Most FPS players
                Honestly, aren't who we are trying to attract. The reality is at its heart, UT can't compete with the likes of CoD, or BF in numbers. It's simply always been a step above that.

                Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                don't care whether UT is an Arena FPS or not, they just want to play a good FPS that is worth investing their time in. Sure, players can potentially carry 10 guns and switch between all of them, but that's just not how we play UT. The player starts with the Enforcer. Right from the start, the game isn't at its full potential. The player needs to run around and acquire those weapons from dead players or weapon pickups. It takes time and sure can become quickly very repetitive and it's also more likely that players will die before acquiring more than 4 weapons. And the Udamage or Invisiblity won't make the combat mechanics greater, instead.... those items will diminish the quality of the combat mechanics in the attempt to add long term strategy.

                Halo counters that issue by allowing players to use 2 guns + melee/backstab + grenades + weapons on map + power weapons on map to maintain an acceptable and consistent level of variety and interactivity, to keep players engaged. UT is based on an outdated gameplay formula that is flawed and broken, that seriously needs an update. And obviously, it's better if players can carry more than 2 guns.
                There are certainly thing that can be taken from, and learned from this, as long as we remember what it is to be an Arena shooter.

                Originally posted by 3Dmatic View Post
                In other words, the current Arena Shooter format of UT is unable to make up for the lack of interactivity/engagement that can be found in other FPS games the players have played during the past 15 years which unfortunately makes UT feel boring to play in comparison.
                The skill floor is going to be higher, but overall, I don't think the format is broken, or outdated. It just needs some tweaking and honing. The trick will be convincing certain demographics of player that it's going to be good for the game.

                Originally posted by richardboegli View Post
                This is why I like TAM / LTS so much and I thank Vlad for bringing it into UT4: Last Team Standing (Next TAM/BTA)

                Start with everything, don't waste time picking things up and play rounds in Team DeathMatch.
                Ironically, RA/TAM/CA/BTA lack half of what it is that makes the game "Arena" and it's popularity speaks volumes to the genre in it's current state. I'm confident it can be improved, without making it something it's not, it's just a matter of getting it out there to test.
                Originally posted by Mysterial
                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                  #83
                  There is a disturbing amount of people who can't seem to grasp what UT is about.

                  If you change UT from an arena shooter to something else, why even call it UT?

                  That's like making a game called Syndicate which isn't a top down tactics game.... Oh, that happened. Never mind.

                  Or like making an XCOM game which isn't a strategy game. What? ****, that happened aswell.

                  But look how succesful those have been! Oh, wait, the completely bombed ;p



                  You can make another game and stick the UT name on it, but it won't be UT - But that's exactly what people want to play. You can create your own mods and mutators to change it, but those were never part of the core game, they were only additions. I think that's what people have to keep in mind before suggesting the game go completely different ways.

                  The core is and will remain with DM and CTF arena action, with the possible additions of Assault and/or Onslaught. Everything else is an addition, an extra, an option, but not part of the core gameplay.

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                    #84
                    Unfortunately, what UT is about is completely up to Epic Games and can change whenever they see fit.

                    Just look at how Mario and Zelda changed over the years...

                    Comment


                      #85
                      I made a post in another thread that I think bares repeating:

                      Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
                      I don't think there is a point to changing the 'core' of UT, as that would simply be creating a 'game called UT' and not 'a new UT'. I LOVE Ut99 and UT2003 (and a lesser extent UT2004) and people generally have the same consensus. But we need to understand why those UT games were successful. UT4 as it is now is very much a throwback title, an 'oldschool' game with new graphics. That can be seen as a REAL problem, as the game that started it all, UT99. UT99 was by NO MEANS a 'throwback' title in 1999. UT99 was innovative, ground-breaking, fresh and unprecedented with forward-looking game design that kicked dirt in the face of 'oldschool' games like Doom and Quake. It featured (for the time) huge maps with high-concept designs, alternate firemodes for EVERY weapon, enhanced movement controls with double-tap dodging increasing the available movement spectrum, bright, high-tech graphics with high-powered voice acting and sound effects: UT99 WAS THE FUTURE. Oldschool game players of that generation saw it as 'noob quake' (you can still see the QL and oldschool Q3:A players retain the 'unreal sucks' culture). UT was the new kid on the block, with new, untested ideas and a flashy new game engine that drew in a TON of new, young gamers who weren't really excited about playing quake online: yet couldn't get enough UT. Young kids (who are probably all 30+ now) ate up the new game design philosophies and made the UT community what it was.

                      UT4 is a relic by comparison, ignoring a LOT of what game design has taught us about what makes the current generation of gamers 'tick' and instead looks back, not forward. Yes, Epic need to create an Unreal Tournament game. No Aim-Down-Sight, no Class-Based-Multi, those simply don't belong... at ALL. But a new Unreal Tournament needs to be as forward-looking today as UT99 was 17 years ago. That means an 'oldschool shooter' is the LAST thing UT wants to be: UT 99 was not an 'oldschool shooter' when it came out. The devs have a HARD job to accomplish: instead of conforming to the definition of 'arena shooter' they need to DEFINE the 'arena shooter'. UT4, as it is now, does not accomplish that, and no amount of perfect balance or tight controls are going to do that alone. There NEEDS to be change: good change, and chances are the 'oldschool' crowd would look at this type of change as 'noobification' EXACTLY like the oldschool quake players accused UT99 of having.

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                        #86
                        "Thoughts from non arenafps players"
                        I think these thoughts are useless. This is kind of thoughts like people who don't understant in medicine at all tell an experienced doctor what to do. Too much these thought and we will get cancer
                        Last edited by e1vp; 02-26-2016, 09:54 AM.

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by e1vp View Post
                          "Thoughts from non arenafps players"
                          I think these thoughts are useless. This is kind of thoughts like people who don't understant in medicine at all tell an experienced doctor what to do. Too much these thought and we will get cancer
                          Non arenafps players are the majority of gamers in general... *sighs and beats my head against the wall* I'm starting to think every arena/competitve gamer needs to take a basic 101 economic class before saying something like this... And your comparing the medical field to the entertainment field... where the goal of the entertainment field is to appease to as many customers as possible ala listen to the majority, not the competitive minority... *sighs* It's like taking a time machine to the dark ages and trying to explain things.
                          Last edited by Artaneius; 02-26-2016, 12:04 PM.

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                            #88
                            Just to be clear, changes can mean 2 things:
                            - Evolution
                            - A different direction

                            Clearly in this thread we aren't talking about dumbing down UT to make it appeal to casual players who only play CoD. And we aren't talking about adding auto-aim either. We are talking about features that could enhance the level of interactivity, combat, movement, etc. But it requires us to look objectively at Arena Shooters and accept that some aspects are flat out bad, boring and not very challenging. The impact hammer is a melee weapon and it needs to be charged? It's bad. Are players never really experiencing UT at its best? It's bad. Those are real issues that needs to be fixed and can be fixed. Sure the game might play differently - a bit - , but that's the meaning of evolution.

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                              #89
                              Some people actually believe that you can rip every core mechanic that defines a series, then mash up a chimera abomination from 10 completely different games and it would turn out fine. Not only that, it would actually thrive in a saturated market against games that are backed by insane marketing funds . In addition, these are also the same people that have a massive chip on their shoulder against players who mastered the mechanics (the competitive community), whom can quickly call out some of the insanity spouted.

                              You can continue to bash the genre as "dead", but hopefully the development team views this as an opportunity to grab a market that is there for the taking. In recent times there was no competitor to grab that, the last good project was in 2004(!), and gameplay disasters like UT3 would not woo anyone with two functional braincells - leaving some small, underfunded indie projects. There's a major hole in the arena FPS scene that needs to be filled with a modernized game on a modernized engine that can offer essential features. Features that are there without needing 5003205230 mutators that change everything from how flak fires to adding a basic warmup/ready system.

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                                #90
                                Arena Shooters were step 1. Halo was step 2. Step 3 takes a look at 1 and 2 and what's next is different. UT3 failed because it was trying hard to remain the same and we are seeing it all over again with this project despite the little changes and improvements.

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