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    #16
    Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
    it's a whole new form of interaction with technology to do creative things
    Not really. It doesn't give you any more control than a mouse and keyboard. Actually it gives LESS. And we already developed large, much better simulator machines for training a long time ago, unless you're referring to something like surgery or working on a car. And in any case, that has nothing to do with gaming, and thus, is irrelevant to the discussion.

    Originally posted by PayBack View Post
    Have you actually played with the Vive?
    Nope. And I see 0 reason to. Yes, I don't doubt it does provide a better, more immersive graphical experience, but that's not enough for me for even consider shelling out some serious cash for it since it doesn't give anything more than that, and I refuse to call the Oculus or the Vive or what have you, "the next step" in gaming. 'Cause they're really not. If they are, then you better give the Wii the same title for making motion controls so stupidly popular for a while. Or the arcade cabinets of the 80s/90s with those light guns. Or those cheap VR setups you used to see at the mall sometimes. They provided a new way to play the game and got there before the Oculus/Vive/etc. ever did. Were those the next step in gaming?

    VR tech right now allows us to catch us a cool glimpse of the future. But for the moment, that's all it really is. We need neuro-integration for that next step and I guaran-****ing-tee you that's not gonna be happening any time soon, for better (because of the inevitable political issues and the very real danger of mind control from an unknown party influencing the system) and for worse.
    Last edited by Arnox_BU; 10-08-2016, 11:43 AM.
    And still I wait...

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      #17
      Originally posted by Arnox_BU View Post
      Not really. It doesn't give you any more control than a mouse and keyboard. Actually it gives LESS. And we already developed large, much better simulator machines for training a long time ago, unless you're referring to something like surgery or working on a car. And in any case, that has nothing to do with gaming, and thus, is irrelevant to the discussion.
      It has plenty to do with gaming. And tbh you are talking out your butt if you haven't tried it. I was also cynical of VR and still am in some ways, but it (the Vive, in particular) really is a whole new way of interacting. Better or worse is subjective, since they each have different strengths.

      UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
      Contrib Digest | UT2341 - Henrik's UT4 Dev Blog | Twitter

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        #18
        Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
        it really is a whole new way of interacting.
        Yes and no. I can make a system where I can control it with eye-twitches, and sure, it would be a new way of interacting, but is it practical? Not really. As I said, it provides a more immersive graphical experience but what could it do beyond that?
        And still I wait...

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          #19
          Originally posted by Arnox_BU View Post
          Yes and no. I can make a system where I can control it with eye-twitches, and sure, it would be a new way of interacting, but is it practical? Not really. As I said, it provides a more immersive graphical experience but what could it do beyond that?
          See thats just the thing, since you havent experienced it, you dont know and its not fair to judge it. Like I said, I thought the exact same way you did, exactly. Then I tried it and it completely changed my opinion. Its really something you need to experience first hand to really understand what it is. If you havent experienced it, you just dont know.
          PayBack

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            #20
            A lot has to do with the immersion, but it's more than just a buzzword. Together with the twin controllers, it opens up a world of possibilities. It feels like having multitool hands, plus those hands are freed up by not having to focus on movement (unless you require teleporting). For games or experiences (like painting) which only require 1 to 1 movement, eg around an object, what your body does, you do in the game. In Vive, since you're not tracked by a webcam type thing but two very detailed sensors, it almost never loses tracking. So here you are crouching down, getting up on your toes, and stretching around to examine things and meanwhile, your left hand is a palette and your right hand is a paintbrush. Or you are holding and handling a rifle just like you would a real one. Or you are pulling arrows from a quiver on your back, and shooting them just as you would in real life. Or you are handling a ping pong paddle just as you would, using the same amount of force and technique.

            It refines and/or teaches real world skills, and it's flexible in a way that something like eye-blinks or any other arbitrary control system (say, a steering wheel peripheral) or even a mouse and kb wouldn't be. With any of these, you're always using them in the same way. Even Wii with its nunchuck system is still just a fancy motion tracked game controller. What the Vive accomplishes with VR is to polish and push the same basic idea to where it really shines and shows its true potential because for the first time, it feels like you're actually doing all of these things. That isn't currently true of many more basic VR systems like GearVR, and I can understand that those are to some degree gimmicky and people won't really "get it" necessarily. Because the way you use your hands is definitely half of the experience, and the combination is what takes it over the top. It probably won't take too long for it to get even better.

            We both seem to agree that VR is useless for UT, but only one of us Arnox is (at present) qualified to say how practical it is or isn't as a general gaming system. Is it the future? Well, it depends what you want. As much as I can't stand the idea of a bunch of people going everywhere like dopes with VR or AR apparatus stuck to their face, or God forbid, one day directly interfaced to them biologically, for many people and for many purposes I have a hard time denying that it's really a game changer.
            Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 10-08-2016, 03:39 PM.

            UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
            Contrib Digest | UT2341 - Henrik's UT4 Dev Blog | Twitter

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              #21
              Originally posted by PayBack View Post
              See thats just the thing, since you havent experienced it, you dont know and its not fair to judge it. Like I said, I thought the exact same way you did, exactly. Then I tried it and it completely changed my opinion. Its really something you need to experience first hand to really understand what it is. If you havent experienced it, you just dont know.
              You keep saying I don't know. Don't know what? What the experience is like exactly? That's true somewhat. But not all the way. I can imagine. I know what they do. And you still have not told what EXACTLY VR offers over other control schemes and technologies that is such a step ahead. Please don't play the "you haven't experienced it" card. Use your words. Describe what it is exactly you think I'm missing. A good game developer should always be able to tell what quantifies an experience. How exactly something is good, bad, or just meh.
              And still I wait...

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                A lot has to do with the immersion, but it's more than just a buzzword. Together with the twin controllers, it opens up a world of possibilities. It feels like having multitool hands, plus those hands are freed up by not having to focus on movement (unless you require teleporting). For games or experiences (like painting) which only require 1 to 1 movement, eg around an object, what your body does, you do in the game. In Vive, since you're not tracked by a webcam type thing but two very detailed sensors, it almost never loses tracking. So here you are crouching down, getting up on your toes, and stretching around to examine things and meanwhile, your left hand is a palette and your right hand is a paintbrush. Or you are holding and handling a rifle just like you would a real one. Or you are pulling arrows from a quiver on your back, and shooting them just as you would in real life. Or you are handling a ping pong paddle just as you would, using the same amount of force and technique.

                It refines and/or teaches real world skills, and it's flexible in a way that something like eye-blinks or any other arbitrary control system (say, a steering wheel peripheral) or even a mouse and kb wouldn't be. With any of these, you're always using them in the same way. Even Wii with its nunchuck system is still just a fancy motion tracked game controller. What the Vive accomplishes with VR is to polish and push the same basic idea to where it really shines and shows its true potential because for the first time, it feels like you're actually doing all of these things. That isn't currently true of many more basic VR systems like GearVR, and I can understand that those are to some degree gimmicky and people won't really "get it" necessarily. Because the way you use your hands is definitely half of the experience, and the combination is what takes it over the top. It probably won't take too long for it to get even better.

                We both seem to agree that VR is useless for UT, but only one of us Arnox is (at present) qualified to say how practical it is or isn't as a general gaming system. Is it the future? Well, it depends what you want. As much as I can't stand the idea of a bunch of people going everywhere like dopes with VR or AR apparatus stuck to their face, or God forbid, one day directly interfaced to them biologically, for many people and for many purposes I have a hard time denying that it's really a game changer.
                There were two moments that really made me realize how awesome VR is. First time I was playing Space Pirate Trainer, which is basically a standing shooting at waves of attacking robot drones. The controller, when you look at it in VR is actually a gun that it appears your hand is holding. I pulled the gun (Controller) up to my face and I just rotated it around, I could see every part of the gun, not just the top half or the side, but everything and all I had to do was rotate my hand like I was actually holding it. The other time was when playing one of Valves VR demos where you are using a giant sling shot on an elevated platform to shoot down boxes in a warehouse. After shooting them, I walked forward and looked over the edge, and I could see all the way down. Watching the boxes fall to the ground, bouncing around, it was insane.

                When you are playing in VR its really easy to forget you are in a VR environment. Its almost like the VR world becomes the real world. Its really immersive in a way that I never realized was possible.
                PayBack

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Arnox_BU View Post
                  You keep saying I don't know. Don't know what? What the experience is like exactly? That's true somewhat. But not all the way. I can imagine. I know what they do. And you still have not told what EXACTLY VR offers over other control schemes and technologies that is such a step ahead. Please don't play the "you haven't experienced it" card. Use your words. Describe what it is exactly you think I'm missing. A good game developer should always be able to tell what quantifies an experience. How exactly something is good, bad, or just meh.
                  Do you think i am going to be able to tell you anything about VR that you dont already know? Unfortunately until you play with VR you will never understand what makes VR special. Its just an experience. I can describe a roller coaster to you in immense detail, but until you actually ride one and experience that stomach clenching first drop, you will never really understand it.
                  PayBack

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                    #24
                    "VR + Unreal Tournament"



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                      #25
                      Originally posted by PayBack View Post
                      When you are playing in VR its really easy to forget you are in a VR environment. Its almost like the VR world becomes the real world. Its really immersive in a way that I never realized was possible.
                      Yes and certain experiences can't be related with words in order to convince someone. I tried my best to describe it but it doesn't say everything. Basically the same as why people of "faith" and people of "science" will always disagree. Certain journeys you can only make for yourself.

                      UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
                      Contrib Digest | UT2341 - Henrik's UT4 Dev Blog | Twitter

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by PayBack View Post
                        Do you think i am going to be able to tell you anything about VR that you dont already know? Unfortunately until you play with VR you will never understand what makes VR special. Its just an experience. I can describe a roller coaster to you in immense detail, but until you actually ride one and experience that stomach clenching first drop, you will never really understand it.
                        Yes, but I can use my imagination, you know. I can imagine myself being pulled up and yanked back and jerked right and left and etc. I can imagine the wind blowing incredibly hard against my face. And I can imagine what VR feels/looks like. Now, once again, I never said it isn't a cool experience. But I don't really think it's gonna last. Maybe in the job training sector, sure. Porn, sure. Gaming? Ehhhhh... That's a longshot.

                        BTW, I love the sig quote.
                        And still I wait...

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                          #27
                          Why is that so hard to believe, though? Gaming is an escape, and anything that can make that escape more convincing is probably going to stick. Maybe you aren't keen on equating gaming to porn.

                          UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
                          Contrib Digest | UT2341 - Henrik's UT4 Dev Blog | Twitter

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Arnox_BU View Post
                            Yes, but I can use my imagination, you know. I can imagine myself being pulled up and yanked back and jerked right and left and etc. I can imagine the wind blowing incredibly hard against my face. And I can imagine what VR feels/looks like. Now, once again, I never said it isn't a cool experience. But I don't really think it's gonna last. Maybe in the job training sector, sure. Porn, sure. Gaming? Ehhhhh... That's a longshot.

                            BTW, I love the sig quote.
                            The best way to describe it, imagine going to a different world. Literally, imagine being in a totally different universe, different world, different colors, shapes, textures, details. You experience the physics of the world first hand, you learn the laws and rules of the world first hand. Experiencing things in a way you have never before. You are no longer playing the game from the outside, you are a part of the game from the inside.

                            Thanks I love that movie.
                            PayBack

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                              #29
                              VR will last, VR is the future. Of course there will still be people playing games in other ways but VR eventually is going to be used for so many things. Its only a matter of time before the tech catches up and we are putting 4k 120hz screens up to our face with super low latency equipment, you don't need neuro transmitters.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by PayBack View Post
                                The best way to describe it, imagine going to a different world. Literally, imagine being in a totally different universe, different world, different colors, shapes, textures, details. You experience the physics of the world first hand, you learn the laws and rules of the world first hand. Experiencing things in a way you have never before. You are no longer playing the game from the outside, you are a part of the game from the inside.
                                See? That wasn't so hard now, was it?

                                Originally posted by nes710 View Post
                                VR will last, VR is the future. Of course there will still be people playing games in other ways but VR eventually is going to be used for so many things. Its only a matter of time before the tech catches up and we are putting 4k 120hz screens up to our face with super low latency equipment, you don't need neuro transmitters.
                                Actually, you do, if you want to reach that next step. For example, how are you going to move in a 3D space with your legs? You need something that sees whether or not you want to move so it will move your avatar in the game world instead of the real world obviously. You swing your sword and it hits something. How are you going to transmit that sensation?
                                And still I wait...

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