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    There is no consensus on anything. A couple things have been agreed upon by the majority as "bad" but how to fix them is not at all a consensus.

    There is a group of people who are certainly encouraging "accessibility" in the forums, which is quite disappointing. I cringe every time I read someone say rockets are too slow (or anything is too slow other than weapon switching for that matter). Just as I do for anyone who says anything other than globs and cores should do more damage. Not that damage amount is really the problem, so much as how easily it's dealt, but you could argue that either way. Easy damage is fine if it's low, but that's where the consensus is lacking. Do we have easy to deal low damage, hard to deal lethal damage, a bit of both, or do we just make it sci-fi CoD style TTK? The latter is what it feels like, with every weapon leaning towards duel efficacy, not necessarily increasing potential DPS, but making the potential a lot easier to achieve.

    I've been advocating for removing Tri-rox since 2kx, and there had never been a consensus on it. It was a pretty unpopular opinion until they started to pursue this custom salvo arrangement deal. Now that lock isn't a stand alone thing, but incorporated into salvos, savlos are just now too easy? lol, and people want greandes back? lol. So they drop the skill ceiling on rocket salvos almost to the point where rocket grenades were and now people want nades back instead of salvos, because salvos were more effective at the same skill ceiling.

    These people aren't designers, they don't know what they want.
    Originally posted by Mysterial
    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

    Comment


      Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
      There is no consensus on anything. A couple things have been agreed upon by the majority as "bad" but how to fix them is not at all a consensus.

      There is a group of people who are certainly encouraging "accessibility" in the forums, which is quite disappointing. I cringe every time I read someone say rockets are too slow (or anything is too slow other than weapon switching for that matter). Just as I do for anyone who says anything other than globs and cores should do more damage. Not that damage amount is really the problem, so much as how easily it's dealt, but you could argue that either way. Easy damage is fine if it's low, but that's where the consensus is lacking. Do we have easy to deal low damage, hard to deal lethal damage, a bit of both, or do we just make it sci-fi CoD style TTK? The latter is what it feels like, with every weapon leaning towards duel efficacy, not necessarily increasing potential DPS, but making the potential a lot easier to achieve.

      I've been advocating for removing Tri-rox since 2kx, and there had never been a consensus on it. It was a pretty unpopular opinion until they started to pursue this custom salvo arrangement deal. Now that lock isn't a stand alone thing, but incorporated into salvos, savlos are just now too easy? lol, and people want greandes back? lol. So they drop the skill ceiling on rocket salvos almost to the point where rocket grenades were and now people want nades back instead of salvos, because salvos were more effective at the same skill ceiling.

      These people aren't designers, they don't know what they want.
      Thats because a lot of people rather complain than learn to play The game is already great fun... I feel like too many tweaks may make it dull, like Battlefield... oy.

      Comment


        Originally posted by fb.pb View Post
        The frustrating part is that it feels very close to "good". I wish they were more transparent with their feelings on weapon balance in general. There's the (possibly) illusion of a community near consensus on most things weapon related, but it doesn't feel like it's being listened to sometimes.
        They have said before in pre-alpha stage they are more focused on just tossing around ideas with weapons rather than balancing the arsenal as a whole. I remember a dev posting they plan to put more emphasis on balancing later on right now they just want to experiment with weapon functionality.

        Comment


          Well I think they were clear since the beginning they didn't like hitscan and wanted to buff spam weapons (see mysterial quote from aenubis)

          Sadly they based their values or reasoning on players with the best aiming skills in the world that indeed, are super good with hitscan.

          But they didn't réalise almost everyone likes hitscan. It has been pretty clear for me throughout my years of gaming, AT any skill level, people like hitscan.

          And now there's no point to even TRY using sniper for noobs when roeckts, mini, flak deal sooo much easy damage. So they don't play. Because its too hectic, too pushy (hell even When Im talking about ut2004 with casual friends they tell me the game was all about flak and roket! You need many months, if not years, to be effective with hitscan.)

          And the last veterans play instagib instead...

          Comment


            Originally posted by boNz View Post
            Well I think they were clear since the beginning they didn't like hitscan and wanted to buff spam weapons (see mysterial quote from aenubis)

            Sadly they based their values or reasoning on players with the best aiming skills in the world that indeed, are super good with hitscan.

            But they didn't réalise almost everyone likes hitscan. It has been pretty clear for me throughout my years of gaming, AT any skill level, people like hitscan.

            And now there's no point to even TRY using sniper for noobs when roeckts, mini, flak deal sooo much easy damage. So they don't play. Because its too hectic, too pushy (hell even When Im talking about ut2004 with casual friends they tell me the game was all about flak and roket! You need many months, if not years, to be effective with hitscan.)

            And the last veterans play instagib instead...
            I think the whole point of a balanced game is that you have different weapons for different scenarios.
            In Quake when you get closer to your opponent you'll almost automatically switch to either RL or LG.
            Most of the time projectiles are better for close/medium range because of obvious reasons.
            When a game turns into hitscan only it gets really bland IMO.

            However, the weapon balance in the current UT is the worst i've ever seen in a game.
            It's also worse than how it was about a year ago.
            UT doesn't feel clean and balanced at all, it feels spammy.

            I think some simple adjustments would fix most of the issues.
            Removal of the TriRox (grenades only), changing the minigun alt-fire (back to shards), minimum dmg of 1 on the Shock Combo, damage reduction on the Flak primary and secondary.

            But if it's true what you said about "wanted to buff spam weapons (see mysterial quote from aenubis)", it's probably not going to be clean and balanced.
            Last edited by forward; 12-28-2016, 05:02 AM.

            Comment


              If people like hit scan, it's probably because of the immediate reward and reinforcement. Especially when paired with a plink plonk hit sound.

              Not everyone likes anything. I can't personally understand how anyone finds hit scan to be at all satisfying, unless they are only concerned with scoring damage, and not the actual skill it takes to connect with a weapon, in which case the point-click-score ease of hit scan is exactly what they are trying to duplicate by buffing the "spam" weapons.

              For me, it's just making all the weapons less satisfying to use. The fast pace of the game may keep the skill floor a bit high for hit scan, but the ceiling is pretty much at a fixed height, and isn't rising any time ever. Instant fire is instant. It doesn't require much prediction, or thought.

              As far as not wanting to learn to play, I guess you could argue it either way. On the one hand, "learning" isn't something you should be doing as much of when developing. On the other hand, if your speaking more to the philosophical element of players not wanting to learn skills needed to play video games, then they should be watching movies, and not playing video games. Everything in this game should move to be more challenging, not less, which seems to be the current path. The path of accessibility can be argued as antithetical to the entire concept of video games, which I hoped wouldn't be a factor as the proverbial "market" as been removed [sic] from the equation by making a "free" game. It is apparently not free, in anything but a monetary sense.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

              Comment


                Well, why would they even try learning hitscan when it means they are going to get raped during weeks, months, years for some of them. While they can just throw rockets or flak all over the map, and get satisfying scores sometimes.

                So in the end, either you like that roket and flak only game, or you quit. And I have a strong opinion about masses on that.

                Also you are completely wrong saying hitscan is easy. Hell, even pro duellers struggle with it. Not talking about the Elim eu community that I like a lot, but comeon, how many can deal decent damage with hitscan? and most of them are veterans.

                On the other hand, pro players can still use hitscan, depending on gametype its still quite effective. But not enough, compared to rokets and flak. So even veterans get ******, sadly.
                Last edited by boNz; 12-29-2016, 05:24 AM.

                Comment


                  Try? lol. Just click on things.
                  Originally posted by Mysterial
                  An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                    Try? lol. Just click on things.
                    You must have 100% hit-scan accuracy then.
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                    Comment


                      you guys do realize you are just arguing with yourselves and that the developers havent responded in ages?

                      we have been asking for flak nerfs for about a year now and it didnt happen
                      and we asked for bunch of other things but developers mostly make changes they think should be in the game (instead of listening to the community)

                      they have a vision of how this game should look and play and we are just here to test them
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                        And I'm pretty much ok with that. I mean, would be nice that devs consider some of the community suggestions and they probably read the comments. But it's impossible to accept every single suggestion. Even if users make "consensus", which is usually just opinion of the loudest ones.

                        Honestly, I'm more concerned about the progress and Epic resources dedicated to this game.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by LAcy View Post
                          Epic resources dedicated to this game.
                          This is the real issue. My guess is the higher ups like Mark Rein just don't see UT franchise really profitable anymore and don't want to risk investing a bunch of money/resources into it.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by nes710 View Post
                            This is the real issue. My guess is the higher ups like Mark Rein just don't see UT franchise really profitable anymore and don't want to risk investing a bunch of money/resources into it.
                            Well, UT was always kind of demonstration of the UE. I think that Epic made more money selling engine than UT. Anyway, you're right and it's obvious from the first announcement. That's why they made it free, open source, etc. with a hope that community will make a lot of maps. Community wast strong with UT before, so it is/was logical. So if game fails, it's partly our failure as well.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by nes710 View Post
                              I remember a dev posting they plan to put more emphasis on balancing later on right now they just want to experiment with weapon functionality.
                              Yeah, we've heard this a few times. They still get minor damage changes every build. In the best scenario in terms of the community we could find something passable (we're honestly pretty close right now I feel like). I again realize #prealpha, but it can be frustrating trying to keep an organized community going in spite of changes that are made in opposition to community consensus.
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                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Archer6621 View Post
                                You must have 100% hit-scan accuracy then.
                                If you can't hit one in four hit scan shots with minimal effort, your problem is hardware, not skill. Once your hardware is up to snuff, it shouldn't take any special practice to be proficient with hit scan.
                                Originally posted by Mysterial
                                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                                Comment

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