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    There should be no compensation for high ping players

    Some feedback on the stream.

    I feel like giving any kind of compensation to high ping (>125 ms) players is in conflict with the competitiveness of the game. High ping is a client sided problem and the client should fix it. The game should not compensate for those unfortunates because their problem with their ping is a global problem and it will affect all of their games on their computers which involves fast, reactive gameplay. If you compensate, then you should compensate too for bad mouse, bad frame rates, broken keyboards, etc.. I feel like it is their problem and the servers and the game should be aiming at the best possible performance like the 128-tick servers in CS:GO and achieving a very low ping.

    So what do we do with the high ping players? Maybe we can give them a high ping server, but in the end I think high ping players aren't a concern because anyone that have the ability to have a proper mouse, keyboard, monitor, computer, will have the ability to fix his internet (better provider, faster internet speed, limit other peoples download), and the players that don't do such things will be like 3 hour players that will never come back to the game.

    My reason for calling 125ms high ping (Well I can connected to an US server from Europe and have a ping of 115ms) and from League of Legends:

    http://i.imgur.com/g1NeQXv.png

    http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeauti...of_legends_oc/

    #2
    I think your analogy is flawed, as ping and latency in general are not even remotely within a player's control sometimes, whereas the rest of these factors such as mouse etc are. I have personally dealt with situations where I've even gone to the trouble of changing ISP to get better ping, and still end up with strange lag even within my own country. This can be caused by any number of things including bad hops along the network route... and then some people are just in poor locations, what are you going to do... tell them to either move or play a different game?

    It is reasonable to try to address the problem of ping, including all the possibilities for correcting it. That discussion should include ping compensation and if there are ways it could be done without the perceived downsides.

    UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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      #3
      I agree with HenrikRyosa, high ping is not the players fault and everyone should have the opportunity to play this game on a level playing field. Its not possible for every player to fix their ping, where I live I have one ISP provider available, if their network sucks, I cant do anything to fix it. Does that mean I should move to a new city to get a better ISP so I can play UT better? As a network engineer, I can tell you 9 times out 10 its not home networking equipment causing latency issues, its the ISPs congested network.
      PayBack

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        #4
        While I do agree with HenrikRyosa that Buffekerel's hardware analogy is flawed, I tend to agree more with Buffekerel that ping compensation is a dangerous road to go down, especially if you're trying to make this a potential eSports game. The very concept of ping compensation is flawed imo as there is no way to "speed up" someone's slow connection. Your only choice is to slow everyone else down to compensate for the effects of their high ping. You need only look at other modern FPS titles that employ "ping compensation" to see that it is typically not well-implemented or well-received by the community. Battlefield 4 has atrocious "netcode" that DICE has been attempting to fix since launch with mixed results. Unacceptable anomalies like dying several seconds after turning a corner, shots not registering at all, or the dreaded "one-shot-kills" are common place and a huge reason why the competitive community for that game has almost completely game dried up. Even CS:GO, which is admittedly highly successful, still has questionable ping compensation that has produced a notable "peeker's advantage" that most players do not particularly like. I will admit that CS:GO strikes a decent balance with their system, but it is still basically the lesser of two evils and most players would probably prefer something different.

        I certainly sympathize with high ping players as I know in most cases you are at the mercy of your ISP. However, by the very nature of this issue you have to make certain consolations to try and level the playing field. One of the nice things about UT was the predictability of how things functioned at high ping. You could learn to lead your shots as long as the ping was stable and consistent, despite being high. When you add ping compensation you inevitably add an element of unpredictability and end up with some of the anomalies I mentioned from other games (dying around corners, peeker's advantage, etc.) If there is some new, elegant solution that can solve this problem without the downfalls, I'm all for it. However, I think the simple fact of the matter is that we don't have the infrastructure yet for people to play each other across the globe without some sort of ping disadvantage for someone. If we did, there would be no need for LANs (other than as a method of preventing cheating).

        I don't mean to sound insensitive, and again I'd love to see a solution that doesn't have all of the downfalls, but ping compensation can truly make or break a game, even if everything else about the game is great. I'd urge Epic to tread lightly when looking into employing this for UT4.
        Last edited by m3ss; 08-07-2014, 09:49 AM.
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          #5
          Yet there is prediction for movement. And everyone is ok with that. Why movement but not firing. I feel waiting for the round trip to fire is just as gross as waiting for movement. IMO 'Instant feedback' > 'constant delay' even if its incorrect from time to time.

          But there is no reason why there couldn't be both, and a simple cvar to switch modes

          Comment


            #6
            I think it should be clarified that "ping compensation" and "zero ping" are two distinctly different implementations to try to resolve the same issue of high ping. Zero ping has the effect's that m3ss described, where you are being shot around corner's before you see your enemy, or being shot by projectiles before you see them coming at you. Ping compensation on the other hand, if coded appropriately, can strike a nice balance. UTComp for UT2004 is one example where the ping compensation was estimated to simulate I believe 30 ping, rather than lan or zero ping. This was essentially less compensation or guesswork of where shots should land while still allowing you to see where people are coming from and shots are firing from within reasonable timeframes up to a certain amount of ping. It wasn't perfect, and movement was not compensated for, but it did the job quite well for online play.

            I do feel that we need to have some type of ping compensation added in, and atleast made serverside optional so admin's can choose if they want to allow this just as it has been done in the past. The basic networking code itself should be solid on it's own. Perhaps there could be configurable serverside settings that would allow an admin to adjust how much compensation he wants to allow? (ie do you want to simulate compensation at XX ping?). This might allow for more finely tuned control over various play environments such as a group of players who are playing with LAN ping and don't need compensation or the opposite end where you have opposing team's both on different continent's and there is a large difference in ping. I have played in many global matches of Team USA versus team of Euro's. The only way we could play at 140 ping is with ping compensation, and with it we had the ability beat many team's and there didn't feel like much disadvantage from either side. I think if this game is going to be the premier of e-Sport's, we need to give consideration for the ability to play online games or matches on a global scale and we cannot tell people automatically "tough luck" simply because they are less fortunate or as privileged as other people.
            irc.globalgamers.net | #2k4ctf |#ut4pugs | #unrealtournament | Ownedwell.com | UT2004 Grail

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              #7
              Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
              I think your analogy is flawed, as ping and latency in general are not even remotely within a player's control sometimes, whereas the rest of these factors such as mouse etc are. I have personally dealt with situations where I've even gone to the trouble of changing ISP to get better ping, and still end up with strange lag even within my own country. This can be caused by any number of things including bad hops along the network route... and then some people are just in poor locations, what are you going to do... tell them to either move or play a different game?

              It is reasonable to try to address the problem of ping, including all the possibilities for correcting it. That discussion should include ping compensation and if there are ways it could be done without the perceived downsides.
              Well, I think almost all of them will choose on their own to move on ("im sorry guys im lagging so bad atm") from any FPS or they will get kicked from the server ("kick the lagger", "Please leave, you lagger"). Even with lag reduction. CoD does a lot of work to get 12-18 players connecting to some guys PS or XBOX and reducing lag for all of them, but on the PC with the dedicated servers all the best players never had a ping higher than 70ms while the servers used the same kind of lag reduction, so even with special attention their ping will hinder them.

              But maybe I am biased to having a good connection because I always played with Europeans with good connections, QuakeLive servers most players had a ping between 15-60ms and CS:GO 15-80ms.

              Originally posted by xios View Post
              I think it should be clarified that "ping compensation" and "zero ping" are two distinctly different implementations to try to resolve the same issue of high ping. Zero ping has the effect's that m3ss described, where you are being shot around corner's before you see your enemy, or being shot by projectiles before you see them coming at you. Ping compensation on the other hand, if coded appropriately, can strike a nice balance. UTComp for UT2004 is one example where the ping compensation was estimated to simulate I believe 30 ping, rather than lan or zero ping. This was essentially less compensation or guesswork of where shots should land while still allowing you to see where people are coming from and shots are firing from within reasonable timeframes up to a certain amount of ping. It wasn't perfect, and movement was not compensated for, but it did the job quite well for online play.

              I do feel that we need to have some type of ping compensation added in, and atleast made serverside optional so admin's can choose if they want to allow this just as it has been done in the past. The basic networking code itself should be solid on it's own. Perhaps there could be configurable serverside settings that would allow an admin to adjust how much compensation he wants to allow? (ie do you want to simulate compensation at XX ping?). This might allow for more finely tuned control over various play environments such as a group of players who are playing with LAN ping and don't need compensation or the opposite end where you have opposing team's both on different continent's and there is a large difference in ping. I have played in many global matches of Team USA versus team of Euro's. The only way we could play at 140 ping is with ping compensation, and with it we had the ability beat many team's and there didn't feel like much disadvantage from either side. I think if this game is going to be the premier of e-Sport's, we need to give consideration for the ability to play online games or matches on a global scale and we cannot tell people automatically "tough luck" simply because they are less fortunate or as privileged as other people.
              I'm talking about high ping players (on a public server).

              Playing competitive with good internet (140ms to NA from EU is about having good internet) there should be different handling of servers in general IMO. There should be more choices about how to handle lag and of course game play.
              Last edited by Buffekerel; 08-07-2014, 01:59 PM.

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                #8
                Can't say it enough, but the game needs newnet style ping compensation

                The only people from UT1 who DON'T like newnet are people with excellent connections to the very local servers they play on, this is because newnet is a half mod/ half hack which cannot 100% replicate the fantastic feeling of playing reg at 25 ping, even if it's very close

                Zero ping aka client side hit registration is a whole other matter and in the past this has been shown not to work well for non hitscan gametypes

                UT in 2014 is a global game, i can play on any server in the world happily with newnet, UT4 doesn't need to go backwards from this, there's no reason at all to not have a generous amount of well implemented ping compensation

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                  #9
                  Are there any modern (competitive) first person shooters that use client side hit detection?

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                    #10
                    I was hoping they'd go into further detail on this in the stream but I guess they are saving that until they delve deeper into it. There's some very well qualified people who should be posting about this in much more accurate and informed detail, but for my part I've always seen predictive/compensatory netcode implementations as a continuum. On one side you have latency (a delay between what you press and what the server calculates, resulting in slower response since your input takes awhile to register) and on the other you have artifacting (where the server may calculate something slightly after your client, thus causing a discrepancy between what you see and what it thinks "actually happened"). The 1st option gives you more accurate visual feedback at the cost of waiting on your actions to be processed while the latter calculates your actions more immediately but can lead to visual inconsistencies since what your client is shown may not be what the server ends up calculating. It seems like games just have to decide how much artifacting to accept for the sake of allowing more responsive input.

                    In practical terms, North America still doesn't have the network infrastructure to allow people on opposite coasts to compete acceptably without significant compensation. Not having any would split the player base and cause even more server bickering than is already inevitable.
                    http://i.imgur.com/UtGecAN.png

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                      #11
                      I think we need UT99 newnet in UT4 - or something similar. Its not client side, but it compensates for lag. The major problem with it is that projectiles are harder to dodge when the person firing has a high latency. This can be solved by predicting remote players and not compensating for projectiles, just having client side effects for them.

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                        #12
                        While it hasn't been duscussed in great detail yet it would seem that a properly implemented matcmaking system that takes into account your location could help eliminate these issues by consistently placing people in servers with a predetermined ping cap. As long as the player population hangs in there, there shouldn't be much need to venture out of your area with the exception of ladder matches and such.

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                          #13
                          This is definitely someone that ruins heroes of the storm, if you tried that game, and its not even a first person shooter. But Blizzards logic is that, aww poor guys that lag, well we will put default lag on everyone to make it more fair.

                          To me something like that is totally unacceptable. I can never and should never be my problem is someone has a bad connection. Then you find servers where people have equally bad connections.

                          Something better is just a match making system that searches from your site without a ping range. For me personally 1-25 ping awesome- 26-50 good. 50-100 i will only play on if there is absolutely nothing else. and 200 is just no for me.

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                            #14
                            somebody like me who is still stuck on 56k ( and yes there is high speed just like 2 miles away and my ISP can't get a connect here)
                            its not necessarily ping than it is when I push a button how fast can the server recognize that. 56k or high speed the internet is still the same speed.
                            I believe the game (ut99 at least +) uses a prediction on the client to get all the players/weapons etc all together to make a cohesive play environment for the client player, regardless of ping. I don't believe you should enforce a ping lag on low pingers to compensate for a high pinger,
                            I think the server needs to understand the high ping issue and work it. more often than not the game goes to the benefit of the low pinger.
                            We all know about zeroping, but that may not the full resolve. perhaps a change now netcode is handled so there is a quicker reaction between high pingers and the server. perhaps there needs to be a compression deal to get more data thruput, who knows what but its a technical issue.
                            For as we know for now the server rules the game based on how it gets its data from all the clients and reacts to it all right then and there.
                            Many times I fire directly on someone and...nothing... then keep gaming around not exactly aimed at anything then FRAG! whut...
                            its often a game of prediction, aiming where the enemy isnt. Thats prolly true anyways regardless of ping and the nature of this game.
                            probably why there are weapons with a large frag area. Point is my 56k should recognize a keypress just as fast as a high speeder.
                            the differrence is what is the clump of data needed to move it around and the systeming needed to make that work.
                            I can set netspeed in UT99 and that tries to make a balance. there really does need to be a workover in the netcode because there still is a wide variance of netspeeds for players out there and not everybody including me has high speed.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by dinwitty View Post
                              somebody like me who is still stuck on 56k ( and yes there is high speed just like 2 miles away and my ISP can't get a connect here)
                              its not necessarily ping than it is when I push a button how fast can the server recognize that. 56k or high speed the internet is still the same speed.
                              I believe the game (ut99 at least +) uses a prediction on the client to get all the players/weapons etc all together to make a cohesive play environment for the client player, regardless of ping. I don't believe you should enforce a ping lag on low pingers to compensate for a high pinger,
                              I think the server needs to understand the high ping issue and work it. more often than not the game goes to the benefit of the low pinger.
                              We all know about zeroping, but that may not the full resolve. perhaps a change now netcode is handled so there is a quicker reaction between high pingers and the server. perhaps there needs to be a compression deal to get more data thruput, who knows what but its a technical issue.
                              For as we know for now the server rules the game based on how it gets its data from all the clients and reacts to it all right then and there.
                              Many times I fire directly on someone and...nothing... then keep gaming around not exactly aimed at anything then FRAG! whut...
                              its often a game of prediction, aiming where the enemy isnt. Thats prolly true anyways regardless of ping and the nature of this game.
                              probably why there are weapons with a large frag area. Point is my 56k should recognize a keypress just as fast as a high speeder.
                              the differrence is what is the clump of data needed to move it around and the systeming needed to make that work.
                              I can set netspeed in UT99 and that tries to make a balance. there really does need to be a workover in the netcode because there still is a wide variance of netspeeds for players out there and not everybody including me has high speed.
                              Honestly your 56K works fine in UT99, but a modern day game/shooter will stream more bandwidth constantly than your 56K can processes. Take COD for an example, most testing has found that the game uploads and downloads a combined amount of around 40MBs an hour, thats an average combined speed of 320Kb/s, almost 6 times more bandwidth than your 56k allows for.

                              Unfortunately if you do not have a high speed internet connection, we really shouldnt be concerned about you. Thats the same as if the devs decided to allow this game to work on an AMD Barton 2500 with a ATI Readon 9800GT and 1GB of memory. Its not just an inconvenience for the community, it cripples it. UT99 works fine because when that game was made, 56Ks were all the rage.

                              Now I know people will say, they can optimize the stream and heavily limit the data and other features. The problem is even if they get it down to a small enough stream to allow a 56K with a ping thats playable, that still doesnt account for jitter. One of the biggest problems with slow internet speeds is jitter. Its so easy to touch the bandwidth limit, that jitter happens nearly constantly. Its not so bad playing against someone who is lagging consistently because you can learn to account for their lag, the problem is when a players lag constantly changes, there is nothing you can do. Hell in this day in age, I pretty much assume that background applications and programs running on your computer use at least 56K worth of data constantly.

                              Finally, this game is going to be SUPER heavily mod based. I dont expect it to be uncommon for servers to have upwards of a Gig worth of content and mods to download. Reason I say this is because the average internet speed is getting pretty quick. My comcast gives me 60 Mbit down, at that rate I can download 1 gig of data in 2~3 minutes. It would take almost 2 days for a 56K to download that information. Also expect game updates/patches and everything else to be in the Gigs worth of data.

                              If you plan on playing this game, i suggest you get Dish or some other satellite based ISP. Or fork over the money to the ISP to run a line to your house. Also if you have a 56K, how come you cant get DSL? I live in the country and even AT&T offers 6 Mbit DSL service to me.
                              Last edited by PayBack; 08-08-2014, 09:13 AM.
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