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    You know what makes the game feel hard? Dying so fast you don't have time to learn anything. The funny thing is, it isn't that hard. It's easy enough for someone of similar skill, but with a slight knowledge edge, to make the game feel hard to another newer player. Whether it's a bit of map knowledge, or having spent a few more minutes with a weapon, it doesn't take much to learn how to put someone of equal or lesser skill down quick in this game. This is what is frustrating for anyone lacking that edge.

    It seems counter intuitive, but raising skill ceilings slows the learning curve down, and creates more "room" for people in the game. It shouldn't be about getting quick frags as positive reinforcement, but about living long enough to get experience without getting frustrated. The harder the game is for everyone, the more time new players should spend in servers with each other figuring it out without dying every 10s.

    The skill ceiling sets the resolution on skill gaps. The lower the ceiling, the less knowledge and skill are required to create a gap. This hurts the game both in how a small amount of experience is needed to discourage a newer player, and a minimal amount of knowledge is required to advance through each gap, putting a quick moratorium on how long the game remains interesting. Higher skill ceilings put more knowledge between each skill gap, thus widening and extending the time spent in each tier, and putting everyone in each tier at a much more comparable, and competitive level.

    If someone is looking for a constant stream of rewards and positive reinforcement, they should go play candy crush, or something, where it doesn't ruin someone elses play experience.
    Originally posted by Mysterial
    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

    Comment


      ut4 dead before born

      Comment


        Originally posted by sunflowers12 View Post
        ut4 dead before born
        I love the contrast of your username and statement .
        Unreal Carnage.com UT4 Maps: DM-Maelstrom DM-SpaceNoxx

        Comment


          Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
          You know what makes the game feel hard? Dying so fast you don't have time to learn anything. The funny thing is, it isn't that hard. It's easy enough for someone of similar skill, but with a slight knowledge edge, to make the game feel hard to another newer player. Whether it's a bit of map knowledge, or having spent a few more minutes with a weapon, it doesn't take much to learn how to put someone of equal or lesser skill down quick in this game. This is what is frustrating for anyone lacking that edge.

          It seems counter intuitive, but raising skill ceilings slows the learning curve down, and creates more "room" for people in the game. It shouldn't be about getting quick frags as positive reinforcement, but about living long enough to get experience without getting frustrated. The harder the game is for everyone, the more time new players should spend in servers with each other figuring it out without dying every 10s.

          The skill ceiling sets the resolution on skill gaps. The lower the ceiling, the less knowledge and skill are required to create a gap. This hurts the game both in how a small amount of experience is needed to discourage a newer player, and a minimal amount of knowledge is required to advance through each gap, putting a quick moratorium on how long the game remains interesting. Higher skill ceilings put more knowledge between each skill gap, thus widening and extending the time spent in each tier, and putting everyone in each tier at a much more comparable, and competitive level.

          If someone is looking for a constant stream of rewards and positive reinforcement, they should go play candy crush, or something, where it doesn't ruin someone elses play experience.
          I found the current movement in the game a big part of survival. I know that frustration all too well, die a million times before I can get any weapon. But getting decent with all the multi combo jumps, dodges and sliding around I found it helps a lot in able to survive and bring down the skilled players simply by not dying first.

          But and a big but it thats the wrong way about it, I find it tiresome most of the time doing this and it takes away mental focus and energy and also physical (tied hands and cramping, carpel tunnel etc..) from focusing skill at actual game play, aim, planing, strategy, reactions etc.. Just hammering my hands like a school boy pulling himself and that makes the game **** in many ways.

          Fix the movement and simplifying it will make a big difference to the game.

          Comment


            they did simplify movement a bit , added a single dodge directional button and its wonderful, i cant do those double taps anymore so that added dodge button was a godsend. I personally love the movement from each UT to the next and this one is my favorite .. although UC2 was really interesting in that regard. Im not saying ut4s movement is perfect .. just not as horrible as made out to be.

            Comment


              I like the double tap dodge as its been there since 99 but I find it overly sensitive in this version and often tripped by hysteresis in the keyboard itself. It would be great if you can tune the time between keystrokes to adjust sensitivity like you can with double clicks under windows in the control panel. Wall run is handy, but the whole sliding around is a bit over the top I think.

              What most people refer to as horrible is the physics of the movement, like its sluggish and weird feeling and generally unresponsive. I completely agree on that, always feels like wading though water after playing all the other UT (excluding UT3 as I don't play that and haven't for many years) but I am pretty sure even that was better feeling from what I recall.

              Comment


                Dodge click time. It's in the settings. I had to edge mine up a 10th every time I dodged accidentally, and now I accidentally don't dodge. I may have been hitting my single tap dodge key. Too much fine tuning.

                I don't disagree with you on movement. I don't mind most of it, but I can see how it would be daunting for new players. That said, if the weapons were tuned right, there's really no reason you would need much more than a dodge to get out of that hole, provided you weren't grossly out matched.
                Originally posted by Mysterial
                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                Comment


                  I play this UT since the very first version.
                  Epic used to do streaming events about UT dev progress at first time every weeks. It was a very good thing to know about UT work that is being done with dev guys answering to people questions.
                  Little by little they ended these streams and now only remains this forum or discord to communicate. Too bad.

                  Top 5 videos from zaccubus at youtube official channel was also great idea to promote UT gameplay but there are no more vids since 5 months ago.

                  The development activity (https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealT...ommit-activity ) of UT seems to be "on hold" since about 1 month ago. Because of fornite release ?
                  Since they removed access for public to Jira (https://unrealtournament.atlassian.net/) about 1 month ago, the dev activity looks like some kind of 'black box' now.

                  The name "Unreal Tournament" should have probably been changed to some less confusing name (UT4?) regards to old former ut games (specially UT99) which makes the game less "visible"
                  (google search).

                  Some maps were removed from maplist, probably those which would not be fully meshes/textured. They should have kept some of them with some little rework. (CTF-CrashSite, CTF-Mine, CTF-Lance, FR-Blackstone ..)

                  About the game, i'm happy with the movement, it feels reactive/responsive (note: i played all UT series).
                  Only the slow switch time between weapons remains annoying.
                  The "hub/lobby" feature where people can creat there own instance is also great feature.
                  The map design/meshing is really beautiful.

                  Considering that UT is free and the money Epic ever spent (the devs have a salary) in it (12 * 3 (years) * 5/6 people * ~4000$ (?) /month = lot of money) i hope Epic
                  will find a way to make this game a masterpiece .

                  Comment


                    Current game is being developed by somewhat organized (i mean they have their own boss, subordination, etc) team of 20-30 guys, who work daily in same office (in same city) at studio
                    I read about 10 people maximum. But you want to say that the current models and the game as a whole made 25 people in the offices? Then immediately the question arises - what's the problem of making a super-basic-alpha prototype of UT3-like game? Put all the elements of the game in the plan and base gray blanks, but do not try to make levels and ready-made models?

                    why so much drama about this game?
                    "this game"? How would I explain it. Becouse UT3 is the last MP game completely made by Epic games developers as a dream, with all their desires, opinions and visions the super online fps game both on graphics, the features and gameplay. As far as I understand today, only online games are made. The whole this "picture" is much higher and higher than someone's indignation - "it is not hardcore Arena shooter, it is a console piu-piu game, GoW clone etc" If people in the general did not notice this, then they can consider anything ofcourse (how "awfully Epic games made UT3 and sunk it"). But they are only a fraction of the 0.02% of the players who write on Epic games forums like any other user.

                    I kinda _agree_ about game's need for more structured development plan
                    The current plan is absolutely structured and understandable as it is readable for someone from the outside. I have already described this. This plan is not about developing a UT4 (officially).

                    You should see game's C++ source files then. It's a bunch of around of 1000 files, with 8+ million characters in them (to compare - Tolstoy's "War and Peace" is about 3 million chars)
                    What's the difference, how many characters or lines does have UE4 source code? Programmers live in all this, this is their fundamental work. It's incredibly difficult to do what they do, especially working with the new UT4 I am sure. But it is a Epic Games it is not a "4PB Internainment group" something literally. Epic games is still be a "gold standard" of quality. I can not understand why so UT3 hate in peoples (?) - in all kinds of no one current developer wants any connection with this UT3 game? This is true and if so then why? exo7341 сan you explain on the points why UT4 can not start planning and what is the difficulty (as a continuation of the UT3 game). In advance I will say that I do not believe in "taking the best of all UT games" at current development stage. No structure and complex development almost equal to no continuation of UT3-like game on the mp-online-like rails. "UT3-like" is mean to have the full freadom and full "picture" of epic battle game but on online rails. Preferably with UT3-like graphics, maybe less "GoW" like, but more UT3 like.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                      Dodge click time. It's in the settings. I had to edge mine up a 10th every time I dodged accidentally, and now I accidentally don't dodge. I may have been hitting my single tap dodge key. Too much fine tuning.

                      I don't disagree with you on movement. I don't mind most of it, but I can see how it would be daunting for new players. That said, if the weapons were tuned right, there's really no reason you would need much more than a dodge to get out of that hole, provided you weren't grossly out matched.
                      Cheers for that. I found it, though with half the numbers missing in the dialog boxes I missed it first time around. I set it from what looks like 0.25? to 0.18 and its good now.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Andriushka View Post
                        I can not understand why so UT3 hate in peoples (?) - in all kinds of no one current developer wants any connection with this UT3 game? This is true and if so then why? exo7341 сan you explain on the points why UT4 can not start planning and what is the difficulty (as a continuation of the UT3 game).
                        I wouldn't say they actually hate UT3 in particular... Think about this that way: every UT is series always was quite different from previous one. Following list is what _every_ title had:

                        - changes in movement mechanics, compared to previous (dodge for U/UT'99, then double/wall jump, then removal of double jump, now it's sliding / wall running)

                        - change in art design, compared to previous (from military-ish UT'99 to blood-sportish UT2kX, then GoW-like, and for current one... well, here we get problem for now). and yes, i know UT3's art design is most worked-out and complex among them all.

                        - introduction of new game-modes + removal of older ones (this is quite important for current game, as they seem to be trying to find some new main/base game-mode, even before movement and weapons are done - latter even being changed in favor of those modes)

                        Not too many features was moved from UT'99 into UT2kX, not everything was moved from UT2004 to UT3... From what I see, same logic applies to current game as well. I know, idea to keep good things from UT3 sounds very reasonable - but if you wondering why they didn't do that, you're simply asking wrong person. Epic seem to have their own (undisclosed at the moment) reasons for this...

                        Other notes to point out:
                        - yes, current game is being made by AAA-company's team - but this (side-)project is not company's priority (you can't tell same about properly made projects like Warthunder, WoT, Quake Champions, Overwatch, Toxikk and others).
                        - my personal guess about them not using proper development approach (with full design document, roadmap, core features before game-play ones, etc) is simply possibility to start right away using just few guys. Only Epic guys know true reasons tho...
                        - got sig? -

                        Comment


                          Epic needs to hurry and figure something out before other games overshadow this project completely.
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                            all what is needed .... just this: https://ibb.co/jwiCc5 or close to this: https://ibb.co/c1k3jk
                            UT - visionary
                            just do it = epic win

                            Comment


                              Think about this that way: every UT is series always was quite different from previous one.
                              Only the technical side of the matter, right? Models from UT99 would not look good in UT2004, models from UT2004 would not look good in UT3, models from UT3 would not look in UT4 also? Or maybe the limit has finally been reached, except for small improvements? I can say for sure that there is a logical connection here. But UT4 now looks like a random work. This models highpoly and highres and peoples can say it is highwork. But the technical realisation now not based on the overall concept is still just a well done model. Its hard find concept in any model, i mean it's clear that shock rifle-black legion-outpost 23 is the current concept, but this all is not a dev dream, it is a someone's"pro-model" work. A person who can insert this models into any other "sci-fi" game. It does not contain "Unreal" meaning. This models and work will make someone's 1.5 second "WoW" reaction and he fargot completely this design and models after a couple of minutes becouse its all "pro-models". You will not do plastic models equal to you will no do "modern sci-fi", and UT3 design full of hand-made elements regarding dev dream, but not "standards" in the games mass-media "culture". I mean, when I look at the UT3 models I see in them "socmic-futuristic" and unique gameworld form. When I look at the UT4 models I see in them "plan" and "pro" work.

                              Not too many features was moved from UT'99 into UT2kX, not everything was moved from UT2004 to UT3... From what I see, same logic applies to current game as well
                              I dont agree. By this logic you can say that warfare gametype is not necessary, design and level-building method is not necessary, unique-movement-feeling is not necessary, mp-online games oriented weapon ballance is not necessary, improving and increasing the number of vehicles or all vehicles is not necessary etc. But now we can definitely say that we have the ideal hardcore UT. Some users think it is Quake clone. But we know that this is not so.

                              Epic seem to have their own (undisclosed at the moment) reasons for this
                              I was silent with my "criticism", until I understood just for myself something about the current development. I do not want to criticize anything, it's almost pointless.

                              but this (side-)project is not company's priority (you can't tell same about properly made projects like Warthunder, WoT, Quake Champions, Overwatch, Toxikk and others)
                              My sequence of reasoning from the side

                              FPS games are most popular
                              Online games are most popular
                              Todays developers who make "new Quake clone" does not hurt someone's attention
                              Online battles as I understand - the main change of MP structure of the game to online structure. Why not 2-8-16-32-player matches online game structure?

                              About the game title name. I do not believe in research and a complex solution have Unreal tournament title now. It seems to be hinting that except this development no one will do anything else in this direction. They having UT3 game just develop some ephemeral Unreal tournament game. Not even Unreal tournament online, that it was at least clear, why. Just make Unreal tournament - a service-marketplace. Why somebody from outside can believe that was done only to have better something? When for example someone sees the name Unreal tournament 4, and this game looks like "AAA"or "AA", and is equal to UT3. He will ask, what is UT3 game like. And when he tries it out or watch youtube, he feels for him to be existing UT gameworld. If new player looks at some unknown Unreal tournament game and see there cast-iron rudimentary gameplay, he can just say - "this Quake (QC) clone is so worst and nerdy game. Who play this?" "Pro" players "draw" their playstyle in "true" UT, but they may do all this in any Quake or simple games.

                              Why not Final fantasy like - UT3-UT4-UT5 etc? They have a IVX number in title and they put a bolt on someone's modern marketing research which is likely made for destroy samething (game sequence as one of the). This is strange that someone believes in someone's "analysis" of the market. Really the medium-big develop companies believe them? Quake is an old one game in oneself. It has many different Quake titles made by different studios. But UT game is improved technically, with additional to the gameworld "structured" and not random elements interconnected at one concert, not a random "Arena FPS" game. But now the QC looks costly as UT3 was. Which Arena-FPS the current Epic games developer want make? Maybe this is a decision of the mass media which the boss listens to? Users on forum find the better found for number "Four" for current UT. But the boss once made a decision which can not be changed. Otherwise the boss is no longer the boss. It's not good if decisions are made that way. I guess that nowhere was it said why is the name of the game.

                              As one example about difference. The current Epic games work with one pleyer cam-gameplay view as I understand. UT3 has first person cam, third person hooverboard cam, vehicles (x number of vehicles) cams and flying vehicles, any flying shell cams. All this fills the game, it's gameworld and gameplay flow. All this make a solid-picture of online battle and gives freedom, most unique feeling then before, becouse developers can appach to online structure many things. But what can they attach to the old player-servers game structure? Hardly anything interesting. Who will play in the cooperative or plot "missions" in the world of the game, if everything comes down to the routine running along the corridors. If the online structure is not in the game in the pre-alpha state, it is unlikely that it will appear later.
                              Last edited by Andriushka; 07-23-2017, 08:11 PM.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by exo7341 View Post
                                I wouldn't say they actually hate UT3 in particular... Think about this that way: every UT is series always was quite different from previous one. Following list is what _every_ title had:

                                - changes in movement mechanics, compared to previous (dodge for U/UT'99, then double/wall jump, then removal of double jump, now it's sliding / wall running)
                                This is true for the showy movement aspects - however the base movement has always been quite similar, the video below demonstrates. Surprisingly similar given the dislike people have for different titles in the franchise. This, combined with lack of snappy strafe is the games "biggest" problem. All the threads about dodge jump/double jump/etc early on in development are irrelevant because the movement this sits on top of is now "broken" in comparison to existing titles. Even something like dodge height/distance is a step above.

                                Quake also has reasonably snappy base strafe movement compared to current ut4 at least. This is probably one of the lowest level arena fps "DNA" aspects that epic have seemingly tossed. Interestingly blizzard recognised this and made sure that strafe was snappy in overwatch.. which is in their words a "90s inspired shooter".

                                I don't think the term random really describes it properly, however it did highlight nicely why the movement feels so unlike previous titles currently.




                                Going to quote myself from reddit:

                                This aspect is rather bad. Beyond "not being like existing titles" it favors an even more +back, avoiding engagement style of play. If one cannot avoid or lessen damage during a fight, committing to combat becomes the "important" choice since that choice alone may(will?) be enough to get you killed.

                                This has always been the case to a degree.

                                This adds to the already defensive nature of the franchise. The macro, flow through implications are as important as the in fight level. You can't take fights with any degree of confidence because once engaged you cannot avoid reliably. This reduces the number of +ve plays available even further.

                                So the game turns into run away even more, and I post this as a more defensive, positional, non aiming type player who should like these changes but its got to this point and it is just.. bad.

                                On top of what is shown in the video strafing is also slow and exacerbates the problem even further. If this is by design it seem that epic literally want you to have one dodge worth of potential avoidance in a fight. Dodge, which is no ideal for avoidance in all cases, becomes the only option.

                                Positioning and fight selection has always been important, but to me it looks like epic want it to be THE skill. Which is retarded because this is one of the harder to learn aspects of fps.. just look at zaccs description of positioning in his latest duel video. Even an experienced player on the payroll can't describe it in a meaningful way players can turn into results.


                                So yes, what you say is correct to a degree, but there is a base that the other aspects sit on top of which has been broken from the perspective of 3-4 older titles.
                                Last edited by joellll; 07-23-2017, 08:22 PM.
                                Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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