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    #61
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    The problem is that as every encounter approaches predetermination (which is what the majority of encounters in UT4 are, predetermined at the moment of initiation), there is no tangible difference between an encounter in the game and Tic-Tac-Toe. You can only move in inflexible ways. You can't force the attacker to rethink their strategy mid-fight. There is no time for that, and there is no capability for that. The question really is, how many moves ahead can you be playing in the micro game? In UT4, you are basically playing one step ahead.

    I would go so far as to say that nearly every mechanic in the game, not just weapon mechanics but everything, favors the shooter right now. The ping compensation favors the shooter, the movement favors the shooter, the weapon balance favors the shooter... heck, even many of the levels favor shooting by not having enough places to hide or making it possible to get into a hiding position. This reinforces +back play which is part of what has always made UT mind numbing to watch on stream, but UT4 takes it to such an extreme that I can't believe anyone finds it fun to watch at all. It's like watching TTM. I guess that explains why everyone plays Elimination.
    You say this like it's a bad thing. The importance of preparation is what separates this kind of game from Ratz Instagib. If you want the Ratz Instagib experience, by all means, go play that game.

    (BTW, UT99 also had really slow weapon switching emphasizing initial preparation, as well as really spammy weapons that did even more damage.)

    (I do agree that everyone is playing maps that are generally too small and open, but that's more on the community than on Epic. It's not Epic's fault that people are picking ASDF, Pure, and Erase over Solo, Echo, Salt, or Coma.)

    Comment


      #62
      "I wanted to capture the essence of that for people who don't have the dexterity to play fighting games."

      This is all I needed to read. I want a game that challenges, and improves my dexterity.

      When people suggest moves that make the game more about prediction, and less about reaction, that is essentially what I hear. Suggestions from people who "don't have the dexterity."

      Obviously for any depth, there still needs to be involved some prediction, and I'm not saying I want the entire game boiled down to a stick drop reaction time test, but I would occasionally like for someone to make the right move, and not score, so that successful risks can be taken occasionally, and the game might be entertaining to watch, beyond pretty graphical effects.
      Originally posted by Mysterial
      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by LtC-Cynical View Post
        You say this like it's a bad thing. The importance of preparation is what separates this kind of game from Ratz Instagib. If you want the Ratz Instagib experience, by all means, go play that game.

        (BTW, UT99 also had really slow weapon switching emphasizing initial preparation, as well as really spammy weapons that did even more damage.)

        (I do agree that everyone is playing maps that are generally too small and open, but that's more on the community than on Epic. It's not Epic's fault that people are picking ASDF, Pure, and Erase over Solo, Echo, Salt, or Coma.)
        I never said that UT doesn't reward going into a fight with an advantage. UT has always been +back, even in UT largely because of that dynamic. There is a certain element of predetermination in each fight, especially if you have an obvious upper hand as an attacker. This has always lead to higher powerup control and avoidance of fights until there is an obvious opening.

        The issue is that during a fight there is no push and pull even when the people fighting are fairly evenly matched in terms of weapons and stack. In UT there is a kind of back and forth struggle for positioning, good prediction and good reaction lead to longer fights. You have to think 5 or more steps ahead of where you are right now to get that perfect opportunity. I don't want a game that requires thinking one or zero steps ahead because every fight is already decided at the moment it begins. I've been pushing for faster weapon switch for a long time because, IMO, that was one of the greatest achievements of UT2003. Battles were completely dynamic, it wasn't that uncommon to see long fights that came down to who made the first minor mistake in the heat of the battle. It was actually possible to have a successful aggressive playstyle. It was a lot more interesting to watch than what this game has turned into.

        (Instagib distills all combat dynamicism down to aim, so it's not as dynamic as what I'm talking about at all)
        Last edited by Sir_Brizz; 07-12-2017, 01:05 AM.
        HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
        BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

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          #64
          UT2003 weapon switch isn't something I thought I'd ever see anyone want back. Binding swap between shock/lighting on one key and hitting it between every shot... I'll pass on going back to those days. Battles in that game weren't dynamic, it was insta-gib except it took a few more hits to kill and someone might not have the one correct gun combination.

          Comment


            #65
            My experience in both UT and UT2003, was that higher pings - higher skill floor on hit scan - made things much more balanced. They may not have been consistent, due to pings not being perfectly consistent, but having to lead them makes them much less of powerhouses. I would as well be fine with reduced cool down times on stowed weapons, or something else to keep the cycle you mention from being abused. I think burning a shot with each of your weapons in rapid succession could be cool, but some combos would obviously be spammy, and bolster +back even further, so being able to recycle them, not so cool.

            Playing UT2003 with a 70ms+ ping was pretty much all it took to make shock/snipe cycling both feel rewarding to deal, and not cheap to receive.
            Originally posted by Mysterial
            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by Calypto View Post
              You could run other instances in different ports. In UT4, someone has to always start a server which is tedious if they always play with same GM, settings, etc.
              Only if your connection and hardware allowed it and in these cases servers had limited choice of modes, as those where split between several servers. Also, in UT anyone can do it in a few simple clicks. Starting a dedicated server in UT2004 was much more complicated, if you wanted the redirects to work properly.
              "Yeah. _Lynx can fire the lightning gun, have the lightning bolt turn a 90 degree corner, stop and ask the closest teammate for directions, confuse the directions and get lost, realize it went the wrong way, make a U-Turn, and get a headshot on the intended target."
              - RenegadeRetard

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by LtC-Cynical View Post
                UT2003 weapon switch isn't something I thought I'd ever see anyone want back. Binding swap between shock/lighting on one key and hitting it between every shot... I'll pass on going back to those days. Battles in that game weren't dynamic, it was insta-gib except it took a few more hits to kill and someone might not have the one correct gun combination.
                I wasn't saying we necessarily should go back to instant switch, although Ltg/Shock pipe switch was barely ever used in UT2003 because it wasn't practical and was very risky for most people.

                The point I was making is that faster weapon switch creates scenarios that make the game way more dynamic. Weapon switch in UT4 is really pathetically slow. Thinking on your toes is not really rewarded in UT4 because as soon as a battle starts, you are committed to whatever advantages and disadvantages you have as the fight begins. You can't decide to move differently. You can't decide a different weapon is better. This makes fights more static and really makes the game more boring to watch because you can guess how pretty much every encounter is going to end.
                HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by _Lynx View Post
                  Only if your connection and hardware allowed it and in these cases servers had limited choice of modes, as those where split between several servers. Also, in UT anyone can do it in a few simple clicks. Starting a dedicated server in UT2004 was much more complicated, if you wanted the redirects to work properly.
                  Again, you're making it sound much more complicated than it really was.
                  UT2004 Movement Mutator

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                    Thinking on your toes is not really rewarded in UT4 because as soon as a battle starts, you are committed to whatever advantages and disadvantages you have as the fight begins. You can't decide to move differently. You can't decide a different weapon is better. This makes fights more static and really makes the game more boring to watch because you can guess how pretty much every encounter is going to end.
                    Kind of like a card game, where you can see the cards each player currently has in their hands.
                    Originally posted by Mysterial
                    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      A card game where you can see what cards the other players have would be broken trash... card games entirely work because of the combination of hidden info and implied odds.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        I meant, as a spectator.
                        Originally posted by Mysterial
                        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Personally, I'd prefer that videogames be designed for the people playing them rather than people watching them, although it seems that puts me in a minority these days.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Well, I was under the impression we were making an eSport. Again, the problem is being billed for something we aren't sold.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by LtC-Cynical View Post
                              Personally, I'd prefer that videogames be designed for the people playing them rather than people watching them, although it seems that puts me in a minority these days.
                              They should be designed for both if that is the intended purpose of the game.
                              HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                              BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Given that "e-sports" is a synonym for "bad game propped up by expensive developer-funded tournaments", I sure hope we're not making an e-sport.

                                It's an even stranger claim when you consider that UT99 and 2k4 are both from before e-sports even being a "thing" like they are today.

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