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  • started a topic Is this game dead?

    Is this game dead?

    Many many months ago i accidentally found this while trying to look up old UT99 stuff since then ive been playing since it was first made available to play. But it seems to me this is not being developed quickly enough that people have forgotten about it? or the fact that its just simply not even being talked about by other gaming outlets makes me believe this is going the way of Dayz and will simply forever be stuck in the "pre alpha" phase and simply die a quiet death with no one really knowing about it. I mean ive seen and heard more about Quake whatever the **** it is more than this.

    Where i live this game had a HUGE tight knit community and this was looking good to have that same feel of 99 which would attract that same group of people to play but im just not seeing anything on this at all when i google it hell there is legit ****** all people playing this whenever i look infact i see more people on the UT99 servers than i do this. When i google this the articles i seen where like a year old possibly older.

    What im trying to get at is when and what is being done to get this game some quality attention out there and when could we possibly see a product that isnt just a pre alpha. Hell PUBG is pre alpha and is already streaks ahead of development with more publicity. Like is there plans to get twitch involved with the exposure of the game? are there social media drives? is there booths at games con etc?

  • replied
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    Cool, had no idea about that. I wish this guy had the source from UTPG.
    We all do. But Smirftsch is bound by the contract and can't share it with anyone.
    If those two could work together...
    ...My brain makes backflips just thinking about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Originally posted by papercoffee View Post
    Well, you should also look for this. The XC_Engine for UT99
    https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?t=5624
    Higor is a master-brain but he isn't very good at advertising... soooo.


    451 will break your UEd and was meant for Server only, those are the main reasons why this patch never did take off as expected.
    But maybe I can interest you into the XC_Engine as well?
    Cool, had no idea about that. I wish this guy had the source from UTPG.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Originally posted by Gnalvl View Post
    But UT99 and UT2k4 both have been "dead" for around a decade now, what's their excuse? I was pleasantly surprised to recently discover UT99.org's 2009 map pack, which adds UT3-style delayed-spawn powerups and armor to UT1. It was a nice step towards refreshing UT1 gameplay, but not exactly a complete or comprehensive gameplay mod, so much as a nice bonus feature of the map pack.
    Well, you should also look for this. The XC_Engine for UT99
    https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?t=5624
    Higor is a master-brain but he isn't very good at advertising... soooo.

    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    Well, I mean there was a community update for UT to v451. But that update process wasn't supported for long enough for it to lead to actual freshness and being more stable than v436 (where Epic left it). To a certain extent, it's just too much of a pain to make some of the fundamental changes that people would want to make without source access. That being said, I would bet that if someone spent the time to make a real "remaining community" refresh mod that it wouldn't be too hard to get decent uptake with it.
    451 will break your UEd and was meant for Server only, those are the main reasons why this patch never did take off as expected.
    But maybe I can interest you into the XC_Engine as well?

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    The reality is, you could make a mutator that gets widespread adoption in the previous games really easily. You just need to get about a dozen people at least on the same page as you, buy a couple of servers, and keep them packed every night.

    That will turn into how people "prefer" the game.

    The problem in UT4 is that the core game is changing often enough, painful enough to maintain your mods and having core systems break your mod constantly, that it's hard to "stay" preferred. If you did it in 2k4, it would be easier. The core game does not change. It's static. So your mod can be a static improvement.

    Can that happen? Yes. It's been proven in the community multiple times. TAM is an example of it. The old movement mutators in UT4 are an example of it. But you can't just make a mutator and toss it out and hope it gets adopted. You need the support up front.

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  • replied
    Erratic movement made scans more difficult in UT. I'm not saying the UT sniper rifle wasn't silly once pings got sub 100, but my rails have always been better, and it's mostly because of the movement. Also your amp/belt issue was addressed by the community by disabling them for duels, where they were most potent.

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  • replied
    No, I'm blaming modders for not being modders.

    Of course it would be nice if developers always made games exactly the way we wanted them out of the box, but that's just not the way it happens a lot of the time.

    As for CPMA only fixing things that are "terribly" broken, that insinuation lacks perspective. How bad is 100 damage rail per 1.5 seconds really, compared to the UT1 sniper dealing 150 damage per 0.6 seconds for anyone aiming above crotch level? UT1's Minigun objectively exceeds even vQ3 LG's high 160 dps, and so can the UT1 Pulse saw effect. The randomness of vQ3's shotgun which inspired the first fixed spread patterns in CPMA is far outclassed by all the spammy randomness of UT1 flak. UT1 doesn't even delay powerup spawns out of the box, so first belt/amp runs are almost entirely up to the dice roll of who spawns closest.

    So much of those factors gets understated due to nostalgia glasses and brand loyalty bias, but they stand out if you've played a lot of both games. To be fair to Epic, they made a lot of improvements in those areas in 2Kx and UT3 which went largely unnoticed and unappreciated, even if they did make missteps in other areas.

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  • replied
    You're essentially blaming end users for not being designers. It doesn't make any sense. Everything wrong with this game is subsequent of it's design. Whether it's because the design attracted a certain kind of player base that you seem content on scapegoating, or whether it's how they've made sure it's difficult for the community to do in any official capacity, even if that is by making it easy to customize in such a way that it discredits most of those customizations as lacking competent design. It's all on Epic.

    I've always had issues with the ease of mutating this game. It divides the community, makes joining servers a **** shoot, and has given birth to some of the coolest game modes ever. It's a mixed bag, and it may very well be at the heart of the problem. It's a great excuse to not have to make a game that everyone likes. "Just make the game the way you like it." Of course they leave the "and play it by yourself" part out.

    I would also argue that anything CPMA fixes was just that broken. UT may have lacked in many capacities, but it was never terrible. If something about it was truly terrible (like it's current path) I think the community would get their **** together. Necessity is the mother of all invention. Who knows? This could be a blessing. Just hope that the biases of past mediocrity won't curb the community from making UT everything it could have been, and just rehash old mistakes instead. Like our 1/each armor system.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    It's like Epic has designed a game far enough outside of what can gain wide spread competitive acceptance, that it has never attracted enough objective players who would do something like "reduce hit scan efficacy."
    And then you wonder why I blame the community.

    I never claimed my mutator would see widespread adoption; quite the opposite. Like I said, I tried the mutator route myself back in '04. I actually don't blame anyone for not adopting my version of the game specifically; there's a lot of stuff in early versions of my mutator that I changed later cause I decided it wasn't the way to go, and stuff I didn't change then that I'd do differently today. What I do blame the community for is not adopting anyone's version of the game when clearly there were a lot of mixed feelings about Epic's version.

    Would it be possible for a few of the right people to figure out changes that'd improve things without offending too many people and maybe see some adoption? Potentially, sure, which is why it's a little disappointing that it hasn't already happened in the 18 years UT's been around.

    And don't get me wrong, I do think Quake could still use even more nerf to shaft and a little more utility to niche items like the GL and PG, and there are still people in the community who will argue against such changes as if vQ3 is still the gospel. But the Quake community came up with CPMA and UT didn't, and while some of CPMA's adjustments might even seem like half-measures today, at least they were measures at all.
    Last edited by Gnalvl; 07-27-2017, 04:17 PM.

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  • replied
    Then go for it. I mean, you can listen to a few long time community members who have seen it attempted, and understand why it hasn't happened, you can try it and learn for yourself, or you can sit there and blame the community (which technically by posting you are now a part of) for being somehow inferior to other communities of gamer, as your scapegoat.

    I'm fully aware the game is capable of being mutated to fix minor balance issues, and if I thought getting wide acceptance for a balance patch was going to be a walk in the park, I'd have done it myself, and probably be playing UT right now. Every major mutator that has gotten wide spread acceptance has been easy concepts to get near consensus. Getting credit for push kills is a no brainer. Ping compensation? Yeah, apparently those of us against that are still a vast minority. Cheat protection? Of course. I think UT was lucky enough to not really need Herp sounds and Derp skins, but I don't actually know if it ever got a "comp mod." Still a good example of the same concept for UT3/2kx.

    Part of the problem is, everything wrong with UT balance was thoroughly enjoyed by someone. It's like Epic has designed a game far enough outside of what can gain wide spread competitive acceptance, that it has never attracted enough objective players who would do something like "reduce hit scan efficacy." I went back to quake for a while when they implemented 80 dmg rails. Might have stuck around after learning to CSJ, if not for the OP shaft. This community didn't just tolerate, but seemed to enjoy rapid fire, low damage rails that pushed enough to essentially pin players for successive hits, and a sniper rifle that you could lance with and dump at a moments notice, who also chained to near by targets, imparted enough momentum to stop you in mid dodge, and had an OP headshot multiplier. This is all after the overall game environment that them OP regardless of how they needed to be balanced. The answer? Take lag away! "Hit scan is always skill, therefore no balance changes are needed, git gud."

    Only now does it seem like there are a growing number of people who advocate things like nerfing hit scan, or complete abandonment of rocket salvos. There are people that sill miss the UT sniper rifle, and think there was nothing wrong with the UT minigun. Which I'm sure you'll find out, if you actually attempt your "simple mutator."

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    You're not being dishonest if you call it a community patch. It would be explicitly authored by the community, but will convey to the users that the developers gave the community access to the source for this explicit purpose. You're not using the included editor to make end user modifications to the game. You're using the source code, and compiling an executable to change the base game.
    It really depends on what you're trying to do. To solve the kinds of bugs and exploits that the UTPG were after, yes you need the source code. If you're cleaning up the competitive balance through adjustments to weapons, powerups, and other rules, you can do that in a mutator.

    Yes, Epic deserves some blame for not releasing the source code to UT1/2k4/UT3, but there is still a ton which could be done to improve the old UT's which the community simply hasn't bothered with.

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  • replied
    At least in UT200X you could do that thanks to UScript. With blueprint, you are left with hacked together **** that runs exactly like it's made. I'm surprised they even got elimination to work.

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  • replied
    You're not being dishonest if you call it a community patch. It would be explicitly authored by the community, but will convey to the users that the developers gave the community access to the source for this explicit purpose. You're not using the included editor to make end user modifications to the game. You're using the source code, and compiling an executable to change the base game.

    My point is, it's not the community. It's all in Epic's hands. Epic's design, and decisions are what dictate what the community can and can't easily accomplish. Whether it's not releasing the original UT source (which honestly is more interesting to me than this project at the moment), or developing and disseminating UT4 and UE4 in the fashion that they are, they are leaving up every major wall possible to keep the "community" from potentially showing them up. Which makes sense when you look at it in that light.

    The only other path I can see as plausible is one of attrition, but the environment has to be ripe for it. It might could happen once this project goes RC. 2kx was all but dead when TAM came around, and after 2 years, was the most played game type in the title. It was designed by mostly one guy, and developed by a small team, with a test group that was a clan or two from 2kx. They got together and developed a game type fun enough to keep a solid group playing long enough to snowball via word of mouth. It was quite the anomaly for many reasons, and the funny thing was, the gametype itself wasn't the goal, but a stepping stone in a larger effort, of a very well thought out (though apparently not well enough) plan. Actually, I think the plan was good, I just don't think the industry was ready for it.

    Theoretically, you could do the same thing. Start with a small, but dedicated community. Whip something up. Do what Epic isn't, and that's actually listen to that community. Listen, but don't allow democracy to dictate. Most end users don't know anything about design. That's essentially the toughest part. You need good designers, and the only way you'll know they are good, is that even if they don't listen letter for letter to what the community says, they can still change things in a way that pleases them. The proof will have to be in the pudding.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    A patch, even if community made, will still come across as more official, and people will install it to feel "up to date," where as a mutator can still be passed off as optional, and certainly not developer approved. I really think you're undercutting the psychology involved in this. The easier it is to execute, the harder it will be to catch on. People will take a major undertaking more seriously, than a grass roots effort.

    You're up against a populous that is trained to borderline worship authority, and only trust anything that is "Official." Gaining their trust is going to take more than slick talk, and a simple mutator.
    Even if you make it a "patch" just to change the version number as a facade to make things seem more official, your gameplay changes will still have to be a separate mutator within the client. The alternative would be to outright replace the original gameplay as intrinsic part of the client, and this would be frowned upon by the purists as revisionist history even if a "vanilla gameplay" mutator is included.

    And then once your gameplay is back to being a mutator included with a larger package, you're stuck with all the same perceptual problems. At best it will be a bonus feature to whatever other updates were or weren't included in the patch, and many won't even run the mutator thinking that the real draw of the mutator was whatever other stuff you tacked on to justify the patch.

    Yes, optics and presentation are important in any project's reception, but that's exactly why you can't be outright dishonest about what you're selling people. Quite often they will ultimately spot your dishonesty for what it is, or perhaps worse, your dishonesty will distract them from the very features you were trying to get adopted in the first place, which defeats the purpose.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
    A patch, even if community made, will still come across as more official, and people will install it to feel "up to date," where as a mutator can still be passed off as optional, and certainly not developer approved. I really think you're undercutting the psychology involved in this. The easier it is to execute, the harder it will be to catch on. People will take a major undertaking more seriously, than a grass roots effort.

    You're up against a populous that is trained to borderline worship authority, and only trust anything that is "Official." Gaining their trust is going to take more than slick talk, and a simple mutator.
    Yeah, this is a big problem. I mean, you deal with this even with something as simple as trying to talk about whether the movement is "good" or not. Lots of people will just accept whatever Epic does. They don't really know enough about movement systems to even know whether it is good or bad.

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