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    It's time to stop.

    I finally understood what the problem is with UT. The problem is we, the fans.
    We look back on UT99 and UT2004 and we want to repeat this experience, but it's time to admit that this is simply not achievable. It's time to stop whining about how great it was to play those games. UT99 was something new at the time and got a lot of fans, but UT2004 also has a huge fan base because it also became something new. UT3 listened to the fans and as a result there is nothing interesting, nothing new, only the mistakes of the past have been corrected and this is also important, but you will agree that UT3 is not epic. And now UT4 is going to step on the same rake. It's time to think about what's new to bring to this series otherwise the UT is doomed to die.

    #2
    https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtour...players-of-ut4

    Plenty here to prove you wrong, and I'm not going to repost and anger the so-called moderators.

    The blame is not the playerbase or the community: it's poor project management.

    As an aside, I am considering asking Epic Games for a grant to update the current build (4.15) to the current build of the Unreal Engine (4.19) and then, perhaps we will see who is to blame.

    If they provide the grant, they care, if not; they don't.

    Unless anyone can think of a better way to trap Epic Games in their own logic, please let me know.

    (this will be tracked on Reddit btw)

    Sincerity is a game, best played by the insincere...
    Maps:

    DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

    DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

    Comment


      #3
      We can blame the community for whining, we can blame the epic games for listening to them. the problem is still in the fans.
      Fans of the 99's will not allow the game to be anything more than 99, fans of 2004 will whine how they want their onslaught.
      And we again get UT 3 at best. Or a miserable likeness of the 99's.
      And who needs it? This 1.5 fan boys? Yes, it's worth it.
      Last edited by MArS03; 06-23-2018, 10:50 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        I'm not sure if you are serious, with that level of fallacy. Please expand and go into detail on every single one of your points and let's have a debate on them, because surely...surely; nothing is above criticism?
        Maps:

        DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

        DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

        Comment


          #5
          this is not my native language, so I apologize for the mistakes. I do not even know what can be explained here, I just said it straight.

          I think that developing a game with the community is a bad idea. the community does not have a single vision of what they want. the most that fans can do is tell their impressions of previous games.

          Trying to recreate UT99 or UT2004 is also a bad idea. this will not attract new players, and not all old fans will approve of this
          Last edited by MArS03; 06-23-2018, 03:03 PM.

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            #6
            Map request please: Yucca Mountain hazmat waste dump: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Y...sed_design.jpg

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell"
              Sincerity is a game, best played by the insincere...
              This is the second time I have seen you use this quote...a shame it essentially condemns anyone being honest, including yourself.

              Anyhow, if you are trying to imply that sincerity is important, then an outright denial that this forum has been poison over the last year would be contrary and to claim that prior to Epic leaving development, the community was in any way united would be a complete denial.

              Of course we are not 100% to blame but we certainly have to claim a stake in it if we want to be honest. Sometimes sincerity isn't a game, it's just sincerity coming from responsible adults.Are Epic being sincere right now? No, but for reasons which require a high degree of empathy, rationality and insight, things that tend to be lacking, mainly in the General Discussion forum right now. There are still great people doing great things in the content development sections and old UT discussion forums (except for the spammer/troll KaaL, as always).
              My Unreal game collection. Unreal series screenshots (2560x1440)

              Comment


                #8
                It wasn't a quotation. I wrote that.

                I am considering asking them for a grant to update the current build. Isn't that what you would rather; people not 'whining' or 'complaining' but actually rolling up their respective sleeves and trying to push this build closer to beta?

                Perhaps then we will see how genuine everybody truly is about Epic Games, Unreal Engine, the grant system(s), Unreal Tournament, the community, you, me; everybody. Everybody.
                Maps:

                DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                Comment


                  #9
                  but you will agree that UT3 is not epic
                  Of course somebody will not agree. UT3 is one of the most epic MP games ever by default easily if not ever. You can not even compare UT2004 and UT3, becouse in this comparison UT2004 still be 2.0-2.5 gameplay (UT99 is about 1.0), but UT3 skip everything 3.0, starting with something 4.0 (yes some things like shock rifle design looks like 3.0 but another things like flak cannon is a fully 5.0 design). Players argue with the banal position - UT2004 has a million things and mods + castom servers and this is the best of the best UT + vehicle wow effect. But understand - all that 50+ super weapons packs and all features which look like someone's mod is not much to compare with UT3's solid big complex development (people may call it AAA, I think this is not the same thing, but somewhere close). In the case of UT there is already a regular scale for improving game design, the improving is not just put as much as possible features, it is about to save as much as possible features making them better and more interconnected, integrated in graphics/sound environment. UT is a rare game of course. I mean UT2004 is epic game after UT99, UT3 is still epic after UT2004. But all the words about UT3 is a worst game is a really strange. Hardly anyone else will make you one more such "worst game".

                  If really criticize UT3, here, trite, there is a console influsion initially, and the biggest and most complex game design in general, you can not put a random things in overall game/gamepocess like was before to have +1 feature in game, even "beast" weapon pack "looks alien" in the game, modmakers by default can not make something in additional for such complex game except some maps or they can try improve some UT3 models-features, but it is so hard. Someone already wrote that on forum. UT3 game planned in general, this is not just a 3D engine which must be filled with "ski-fi things". Not all gamemodes are interesting in UT3, new additional gamemodes the same. Even the main Warfare gamemode has not very good things in it's gameplay (always constant attack + rare defend + not much sense to lose vehicles). But all this is nothing, the really worst thing in UT3 - is a ancient rails in the structure of the game, all that buttons/menus/choosing gametypes/servers is a lack of normal game structure, but not an "arena specialty". You can criticize a lot this "4.0 game design", but it still be > than "2.0 game design". I think this is a wrong try to develop complex rare shooter game with big gameworld under 2.0 or even 3.0 game design. But start with something "5.0 gamedesign" would be good although this is difficult. And in my understanding of this the 5.0 game design is something that looks like online-shooter game based on gametypes, that's why I write about that. But in current project you can find maximum "3.0 game design" from developers side mixed much with 2.0 design from modmakers side (not matter how "technically high-end" looks all that) + ancient rails like was before in all UT or MP games. UT developers as I can understand initially try put in MP part of simgleplayer game everything you can call full game. MP there is not a part of game it is a full game itself. But who will now develop MP game under the "big game with gameworld meaning" when online game began to be developed massively long ago. Did you have new UT singleplayer game to develop MP for this game? If no, why do not develop "no hype" online-shooter game, as standalone game, fully designed like Paragon, but fundamentally use UE3/UT3 work - just to be able to be big and finished game - this is the main importance, but not the using UE4 engine itself, just becouse this is UE4. The last two proposals are not about "games-as a service" which modern bosses-managers consider a standard (maybe temporarily). But UT3 game in overall may be reworked under everything - and under the big online-shooter game also, where the service is part of the online game itself as was in online games in any time since 90's. This thing makes sense to try develop it, but not a standard small-MP game on ancient rails. "Game as a service" initially has not much with games and gamedevelopment, this is the worst thing about "games as a service", becouse this all just about be a small marketing project and become a little bigger if "hype" and boss-manager's blessing. I will repeat it again - UT3-UT game serie in their very essence for me seems possible to be only under "hardcore rare online game" meaning as Mechwarrior Online for example, but not in form of "hype cyber something for 50 people" or under small project waiting hype and players from somethere. I still believe that the Epic games has all to develop such a game, of course with dev team and design-document, with system and control-management.

                  How many people for example have choosed/seen UT3 Omicron Dawn map? 2000-5000? How many remember this map? 500-1000? How many remember in detail? 50-100? And why not make a fully rework all of that under online-MP game or similar conception? Take, improve assets where possible, build something more playable/interesting as possible than before.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Yeah, UT 3 is a polished game because it's focused on the fans. For fans of the series, that game is good, but still not everyone took those changes.
                    And of course fans do not accept innovations, so there is nothing new in it that would hook. Thats why many consider this game is the worst.

                    I remember the first time I launch UT3, I was excited about what new Epic had added this time.
                    And there was nothing. Even less! What a shame! This is what people call "degradation". In terms of gameplay UT3 feels pretty solid and balanced. But is it fun? Nah. Good balance is not worth to play this game.

                    Gamers are looking for a new gaming experience.
                    UT3 cant give anything new.
                    UT4 cant give anything new.
                    A game that cant give a new gaming experience is doomed to oblivion(except of СS, ha-ha. but this is an exception to the rules.)
                    nuff said.
                    Last edited by MArS03; 06-24-2018, 10:07 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell"
                      It wasn't a quotation. I wrote that.
                      Are you being sincere? Because that's a game best played by the insincere. I'm kidding, but the fact that you wrote it doesn't bring it closer to meaning.

                      Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell"
                      I am considering asking them for a grant to update the current build. Isn't that what you would rather; people not 'whining' or 'complaining' but actually rolling up their respective sleeves and trying to push this build closer to beta?
                      Sure, but is an engine update going to achieve this? I mean, it's something, sure, but how much closer to beta would this bring the game? Anyhow, I thought Sereau was working on this already. But yes, great....finish the game if you can. You'd be a god but never once have I said anything negative about the state of the game currently.

                      Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell"
                      Perhaps then we will see how genuine everybody truly is about Epic Games, Unreal Engine, the grant system(s), Unreal Tournament, the community, you, me; everybody. Everybody.
                      How exactly will your engine update separate the genuine from the disingenuous? Cryptic and obtuse. But then, sincerity is a game...:P
                      My Unreal game collection. Unreal series screenshots (2560x1440)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Carbon
                        Are you being sincere? Because that's a game best played by the insincere. I'm kidding, but the fact that you wrote it doesn't bring it closer to meaning.
                        Yes. If you conducted a web search, you won't find it - unless it links back to these forums. What you don't know is the background behind me writing it, when, where and why. If I ever met you in person, I might divulge.
                        Originally posted by Carbon


                        Sure, but is an engine update going to achieve this? I mean, it's something, sure, but how much closer to beta would this bring the game? Anyhow, I thought Sereau was working on this already. But yes, great....finish the game if you can. You'd be a god but never once have I said anything negative about the state of the game currently.
                        It's an interesting point. There are certainly lots of bug fixes in the base/core engine for one, between 4.15 and 4.19. These would help those modding the game and maybe even draw modders back? You personally may not have said anything negative, but one community moderator (just a few days ago) has singled out an individual on the forums for complaining about 'the situation'. Hardly helpful, and in my personal opinion; disgusting and deplorable behaviour.

                        So yeah - it shall be interesting to see how everybody feels about this game. At the top of the Ivory Tower.

                        Sereau is working hard on this, and needs support - which I suspect is waning.

                        Originally posted by Carbon
                        How exactly will your engine update separate the genuine from the disingenuous? Cryptic and obtuse. But then, sincerity is a game...:P
                        Exactly. Exactly.
                        Maps:

                        DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                        DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          @Mitch Mitchell:

                          If you want a grand that you must first do an update. Epic will not give money just to a stranger. But yes, it's better to ask if you get money for a successful job

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by darkskyabove
                            I applaud you for the idea to update UT to the latest UE. I looked at Sereau's patch notes and it looks to be a boatload of work. At best, it works and fixes some issues. At worst, it brings attention to the effort to get this project rolling.

                            I dis-applaud you for being an arrogant a$$. (I can tell one, because I can be one.) If you plan to ask EPIC about a grant to use their source code, it might be a good idea to NOT impugn their motives and decision-making process. Also, might be a good idea to NOT single out some rando poster and use the "First-Year College Student Fallacy Attack". Remember the climate within which you exist: Presence. How you present yourself and how you conduct yourself have enormous implications in the way that people will respond.
                            Yeah, they have got a lot of work to cover in their patch and I wish them well.

                            Can one 'dis-applaud' ? I mean, I get what you saying and I respect the subjective opinion, but why not just not put your hands together? I had to reach to the Oxford concise on the shelves to check that one...on to your points.

                            Sorry, but it wasn't clear if they are being serious or not...it appeared fallacious...I sought clarity to have the discussion. End of.

                            I do not need to impugn their actions. That, you might say, is kind of the point.

                            People are best described by their actions, not what they say; but what they do. It's pretty easy to spot when someone is using crocodile smiles - E3 (overall, not Epic) had lots of them. The OTT adjective usage dominated every presentation, and they appeared to be just ticking boxes at E3 (much like every year). It was like all of the speech-writers went to the same school of public relations.

                            Tell me, if any of the following statements sound familiar:

                            "...we are super-interested in what you guys want..."
                            "...we are pushing really hard to make this game the best game ever..."
                            "...it's all thanks to what you guys, in the community, have been telling us..."
                            "...the community is mega-important to us..."
                            "...all of the feedback you guys have given us has been ultra-amazing to read about and hear..."
                            "...we love our community..."

                            I mean, did we all not hear similar platitudes a few years ago? I can link the videos with timecodes if you want. I'm not trying to deceive you or anyone else. I can also list and link blogs to highlight this.

                            This is not me being arrogant. These are facts, with a blinding light being shone on them. Sorry if that is too bright for some people, but we didn't start the fire; It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire, no we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it etc etc.
                            Maps:

                            DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                            DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by MArS03
                              If you want a grand that you must first do an update. Epic will not give money just to a stranger. But yes, it's better to ask if you get money for a successful job
                              It would be more than a grand, I'm still working out the values. They did award grants for UT4, even though there was not a grant system for UT4. Something like $25,000? It was kinda odd they handed over money to people they didn't know, or even could have applied for a grant at all, seeing how there was no grant system...

                              In any case, this is Unreal Engine developer grant, different system. It's still under consideration.
                              Maps:

                              DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                              DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

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