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Newbie-friendliness on some weapons

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  • Newbie-friendliness on some weapons

    This isn't a good thing IMO. We gave several guns which are currently quite hard to use for someone new to the series. Yeah, I know the guns are not designed for new guys to suddenly dominate with them, but they should at least get a few kills off them.

    1. Impact Hammer. The alt is quite confusing to first timers. It's a wave of air thing in front of you. That's what a new guy would think. What does it do? In reality, it cancels out non-hitscan attacks. To a new guy, they don't know that. It looks like it could push everything around backwards. Limited range, lack of a clear explanation, and visual clarity are all issues.

    2. Sniper Rifle. Unlike the Impact, no fire more is inheritly wrong with it. Issue is, the skill required to be effective is too high. Even with my pretty good skill with the '99 Sniper, it was a hard beast to get kills with. However, people are rocking with the Sniper at the same time. Quite a catch-22, we either make it easier for new guys, or less dangerous from pros. I'd favor the former.

    Those guns in particular are not new guy friendly. Sure, the Sniper is understandable why it's not newbie-friendly, but the Hammer should be very friendly to newbs, as it's a starting weapon. It's a weapon you will fall back to if all else fails, and that should be reliable and useful to anyone, not only the people who played UT for 15 years, but also the "new blood" whose first time playing UT is right then and there. Everyone should be able to get at least one kill with each gun, not be forced out of one because it's too confusing/hard to use.

    Keep in mind I'm not trying to say "these guns are broke, fix them," but I feel trying to adjust them to be more new guy friendly is a good choice if we want people to keep coming back for more UT.
    Change for the worse, and you regret every moment.
    Change for the better, and you can't live without it.
    Having the will to embrace change is the real challenge.
    --Captain Crit

  • #2
    there will be for 1000% sure a tutorial scenario which will teach you the weapons and functions im totaly against "newbie" friendly weapons coz its easy to master them as a dedicated player then.

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    • #3
      I dont understand the current sniper do you aim at the head while scope or at the circle thing that is in front?

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      • #4
        Can we stop assuming new players are idiots who cant figure out how to play a game?
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        • #5
          Hmm I'm not sure I agree on the sniper. It's very straight forward and it's quick enough that even hip firing the thing you can take people down in close to medium range.

          I do agree on the hammer.

          Down the line I could definitely envision a full tutorial UI in the game that goes over each weapon's firing modes, and maybe even have maps in there showing pickup locations and explaining what each pickup does.

          In the meantime it seems like it would be a nice guide for someone to put together and keep updated as time goes on. Maybe I'll do it!
          @jay43K

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          • #6
            I'm an UT99 veteran and I had no idea what did the hammer secondary do until I read about it. It needs to have a more distinctive visual effect that would better illustrate that it's a deflecting shield and not a hot iron letting off steam.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by subz` View Post
              I'm an UT99 veteran and I had no idea what did the hammer secondary do until I read about it. It needs to have a more distinctive visual effect that would better illustrate that it's a deflecting shield and not a hot iron letting off steam.
              Thats actually a great 2nd fire idea, haha.

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              • #8
                I think that be player friendliness is key, but the original examples given are not issues. The issue is when a mechanic becomes essential to bring able to enjoy the game at all, but that tactic is completely unavailable to new players. The sniper rifle is a straight forward weapon. Everyone knows what to do, and how to get better. You could get by without having amazing sniper aim.

                Contrast this with UT2k3 where if you weren't great with the lg and weapon switch, you just couldn't play. This is something that concerns me with proposals like bringing saw mechanics back to the pulse. Without that tactic you won't be able to play with the pulse, but a lot of new players just aren't capable of pulling it off.

                But I also get concerned when we introduce complicated mechanics that are unintuitive to new players. The current headshot mechanics are a prime example. It requires a certain style of play (stop and pop) that goes against how players normally play UT. They'll only know to do this though a tutorial. There's mechanics like this that go beyond weapons as well. Sprint is completely unintuitive, and there's still a good deal of the current playerbase that has no how it works or how to use it effectively.
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                • #9
                  TWD, the "sawing" mechanic on the original Pulse was fairly obvious. The Impact Hammer secondary? Not so much.

                  Yes, movement mechanic need to be obvious to some scale, but how do you do balance the handholding so that new players have some measure of responsibility in learning what these functions are and how they work versus being worked over like a child? For me, it was seeing how other players were moving and employing their weaponry that inspired me. I only seemed to get so much from the game itself. I can only assume that I had an average experience since most public servers I frequented had other players who seemed to be in the same boat.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Crotale View Post
                    TWD, the "sawing" mechanic on the original Pulse was fairly obvious. The Impact Hammer secondary? Not so much.

                    Yes, movement mechanic need to be obvious to some scale, but how do you do balance the handholding so that new players have some measure of responsibility in learning what these functions are and how they work versus being worked over like a child? For me, it was seeing how other players were moving and employing their weaponry that inspired me. I only seemed to get so much from the game itself. I can only assume that I had an average experience since most public servers I frequented had other players who seemed to be in the same boat.
                    I've had several discussions about the saw on the pulse secondary where others had no clue it exists. I'd wager the majority of UT players didn't know about it.

                    But for hand holding I'd point to the shock. It's not immediately apparent that the mechanic is there, but the mechanic itself is intuitive. The first time it gets used on you, you know how to use it.

                    So for sprint it might be more helpful if there was a visual indication to show that another player is sprinting. You could then improve it even more by providing better audio queues to show a player when they start and stop sprinting. They could then more really learn how to use sprint. The same could possibly done with pulse sawing, although I'm not sure how.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Crotale View Post
                      TWD, the "sawing" mechanic on the original Pulse was fairly obvious. The Impact Hammer secondary? Not so much.

                      Yes, movement mechanic need to be obvious to some scale, but how do you do balance the handholding so that new players have some measure of responsibility in learning what these functions are and how they work versus being worked over like a child? For me, it was seeing how other players were moving and employing their weaponry that inspired me. I only seemed to get so much from the game itself. I can only assume that I had an average experience since most public servers I frequented had other players who seemed to be in the same boat.
                      With hand holding, I think there is a difference between doing that and having at least some sort of tutorial to say you CAN do [insert functionality]. New players shouldn't discover that you can roll while looking at key bindings. That information being available is what new players need, and then yeah I'd say going off on your own to watch a pro play on youtube or something is letting the player decide how they utilize what is available.

                      Although since it's early I don't think implementing a tutorial in game makes sense at this point. You have to come to the forums to grab the build anyway so I think a living guide made by the community would be the best way for 100% new UT players to understand the maps, game modes, weapons, and pickups.
                      @jay43K

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                      • #12
                        In-game tutorials will have to be scripted and come with the actual game build or else a new player might not know where to find them. Another method could be to build Youtube videos, put them in a playlist, and then link that in the menu. This could be accomplished well before the official build is released. We could also bring on a hybrid solution that includes both.
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                        • #13
                          Pulse beam sawing was not intuitive at all. Damage scaling along the beam length does make intuitive sense though (the question is whether it's desirable).

                          Impact Hammer needs some love, but I don't think anyone has an idea that is must-have. One of the ideas that I had for this was incorporating a short range grapple hook (a "pull" mechanic to complement the primary fire's "push"). That was something Steve mentioned too, and I think it's plausible within the function of the weapon. Still, I think things are quite open and I'd like to generate some more concepts for it -- it's a tougher cookie since the gun doesn't inherently have any ammunition and is always available. Additionally, any functionality it gains is going to be more utilized in duels than in almost any other game mode simply because the opportunity cost of bringing out the hammer is much lower when you only have one opponent.

                          I actually really liked the shield concept of 2k3/4 and I wouldn't be opposed to that coming back in modes other than duel, or perhaps in some other more controlled form.
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                          • #14
                            You need to look at the new player's experience as a whole, not just focus on one or two weapons. It's OK to have weapons that require practice or skill but it's important to make sure that a new player can find a weapon that's easy enough to use and get kills with it, especially when playing with other new players! In this vein, I think UT's weapons work well. You certainly can't call the Rocket Launcher, Flak or Linkgun hard to use. At the same time, you want weapons that can over time be mastered. The best example of this is the shock rifle. By default, both modes are easy to use, but over time you can master combos.

                            But discover-ability is a big part of the learning curve and the example of the impact hammer alt is dead on. However, it's also not even remotely final as we are actively trying to figure out what to do with it. Again though the shock rifle is the perfect example. The average player will shoot both modes and at some point, naturally though playing they will connect or see someone connect a combo. So there is a good natural progression. Pulse sawing is an example of where it fails. There is no messaging that it should happen and no way to learn it naturally.

                            The Sniper head shot is a special case we made for game balancing and it's the least offensive of the possible ways to fix an OP weapon.

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                            • #15
                              Agree on the discoverability. Too many games, particularly military shooters, expect a player to learn the weapon before actually engaging in the game. I want to learn and improve as I go, not be a sharpshooting sniper right out of the gate. Show me how to use the weapon, but let me perfect my skills on my own.
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