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    DOM-DOMINATION discussion

    I tested the new dom game mode and i liked it, i believe credit goes to TimEh if im wrong im sorry plus all involved great work.

    <span><span class="hyperlink-whois">

    I played it online and was only 1v1 so i cant really say much cos its not intended for that.

    Only thing i think is once regaining control of a captured point is that there is no need to clear it back to neutral. If red should go to blue, not red neutral blue as it takes a while.

    Keen to playtest with proper size teams

    edit( i may have put this in the wrong section, i am new to the forum ;p if so someone can be kind enough to move it)
    Last edited by code187; 02-17-2015, 07:15 PM.
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    #2
    The big issue is whether DOMination should have a time-based capture requirement or if it should be an instant capture.

    The original DOMination mode from UT99 -- the one that was actually played and that had organized clans and actual clan matches -- had an instant capture dynamic.

    In contrast, "Double Domination" for UT 2003/2004 was an abject failure that no one played. However, that was based on holding more than one control point at a time.
    UT4 CTF Maps: CTF-Whiplash | CTF-Sidewinder | CTF-Highpoint | CTF-Hardcore | CTF-Tubes-Of-Spam

    UT99 CTF Maps: CTF-DagnysBigAssMap-V2 | CTF-Dagnys-P****WhIpPeD | CTF-Dagnys-Dark-Delight-LE102 | CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam

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      #3
      Originally posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
      The big issue is whether DOMination should have a time-based capture requirement or if it should be an instant capture.

      The original DOMination mode from UT99 -- the one that was actually played and that had organized clans and actual clan matches -- had an instant capture dynamic.

      In contrast, "Double Domination" for UT 2003/2004 was an abject failure that no one played. However, that was based on holding more than one control point at a time.
      Assuming this is set up properly, you are basically talking about changing a value from a CaptureTime of X seconds to a CaptureTime of 0 seconds. And with blueprints, if you created a Domination map, there's nothing preventing you from making a blueprint where you can adjust these values to your liking.
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        #4
        Originally posted by Wail View Post
        Assuming this is set up properly, you are basically talking about changing a value from a CaptureTime of X seconds to a CaptureTime of 0 seconds. And with blueprints, if you created a Domination map, there's nothing preventing you from making a blueprint where you can adjust these values to your liking.
        What he is saying is that in ut99 domination you score 1 point for <b>each</b> of the nodes you captured whereas in ut2k4 to score 1 point you had to capture (and maintain) both of the points.

        At least as a ut99 domination fan that's what i think he is trying to say.

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          #5
          I had a few people say they like it like the ut99 instant cap. I don't mind it either way but don't see the point of it going neutral after you cap it, you have to cap it 2 times that way.
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            #6
            Looks good so far. I am not sure if I prefer instant cap or not.

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              #7
              I'd vote for cap but I'd reduce the time it takes to cap to roughly half of that (well 50-70% reduction roughly).

              The reason why I think a slight required capping/holding time is better than without any at all is that it really emphasizes the need to win the fight first around the node instead of players just keep running back n forth into the symbol in hope he/she wins an ever so slight amount of points if the other opponent steps away from it for a moment. If there's a slight required cap interval the fights spread more out around it than staying "at it" which is good from gameplay point of view and the map design gets taken better into account. Still a too long capping time will slow the game pace down like I feel it drastically would with the capping interval set as high as in the video. So yea I'd vote roughly halving the capping time required to control the node of what seen in this demo vid just so that the fights around nodes spread out better (in comparison to instant capping ability) and therefore gets a little bit more interesting but short interval enough that it doesn't slow the pace down.
              Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 02-18-2015, 07:24 PM.

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                #8
                its actually not as bad when i found out that the more team members cap same point time goes faster its just broken for now But that will make a huge difference.

                We need to organize a 5v5 for a proper test.
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                  #9
                  I think capturing it should go a bit faster for single players as it seems a bit slow right now. As more players help capture it, perhaps the speed of capture should go up logarithmically (rather than linearly) so everyone does not feel the need to congregate on the capture point.

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                    #10
                    I'm thinking along the lines 5 sec for single player to cap, 2.5 sec for 2 players and 1 sec with 3 players (assuming the players got at the exact same time onto the node). To me that's roughly the rate which doesn't slow the pace down at all but avoids effectively the tight fighting just around the node and the fights may spread out a bit more since if you stay 5 sec at the symbol you'd be pretty deadmeat, even 2.5 secs is a lot of time in UT, plenty of time to pull a shock combo double kill. At least this is why I'd be prepared to change that mechanic slightly bit in this UT, since I believe it would do good for the gameplay.
                    Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 02-21-2015, 10:00 AM.

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                      #11
                      There's direct correlation between the capture time and the time it takes to run from the spawn to the point. And we cant talk times until you understand the custom spawn system http://puu.sh/g3H9S/c49c8c37a6.svg and what its trying to accomplish.

                      The real question is, Should the team be able to contest the point after being killed once?
                      Right now the Cap takes 10 seconds. It takes 7 seconds to get there from the spawn. That gives 3 seconds to contest the point.


                      Here's a vid I made to study how the game flowed. Still not a 5v5 but close enough.






                      Reasoning:
                      Prevent the cluster**** of Pug dom. Try to promote team work. Keep them together and Guide them to important objectives.

                      Deeper meta strategies. Favor teamplay rather than KDA skill.

                      semi-deterministic spawn locations enable easy to formulate tactics, while providing some uncertanty for of-the-cuff reactive
                      plays and risk/safe choices. (eg at game start: We know the enemy team will be at 1 of the 2 control points. we can split our
                      team 50/50 or risk 1/99. If we are wrong, we are behind, but can still rotate team through mid to contest the point)

                      Spawn determinism favors the loosing team, preventing complete blowouts, making the tension last all game.

                      Capturing a node should have more weight/reward to it. Original Dom caps play out like a basketball game. Kill,cap,die, repeat in
                      all of 5 seconds. Teams trading 20 caps a minute or having one epic battle for one cap has little effect on the overall score.

                      non-instant Captures, and capture points crossing back to neutral will allow teams to contest points. Favor teamplay reaction and positioning



                      Playtest results:
                      The test worked fairly well, considering we never hit the 5v5 team size I made this for.

                      The players never played the map, didn't know how the spawn system worked, and 0 communication. The figured out quickly where they needed to be given a certain situation(worked best 1 red, 1 blue, 1 neutral).

                      There were never battles in all 3 control points. Players for the most part stuck together as a team.

                      Chumb0's amazing KDA and utter lack of teamplay was unable to win the game (his team had more players for more than half the
                      game). He was playing solo and the results show.



                      There's still a lot of flaws:

                      Multi person cap was broken or not enough cap time was reduced.

                      kills/suicides effect the score

                      Not allowing reclaiming your own point did prevent camping and kept capture points flowing, but players often opted to move on
                      rather then defend. There should be the choice to leave a man back and regen your point

                      One choke point per room might be hard to break through with more players.

                      Distances (Spawn <-> Control point <-> mid) and the times needed for capturing need a lot of experimenting with.

                      Spawn system should be indicated in some fashion on the HUD





                      I would love to get a playtest going today. 5v5 and on teamspeak.
                      Last edited by TimEh; 02-21-2015, 10:24 AM.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by TimEh View Post
                        There's direct correlation between the capture time and the time it takes to run from the spawn to the point. And we cant talk times until you understand the custom spawn system http://puu.sh/g3H9S/c49c8c37a6.svg and what its trying to accomplish.

                        The real question is, Should the team be able to contest the point after being killed once?
                        Right now the Cap takes 10 seconds. It takes 7 seconds to get there from the spawn. That gives 3 seconds to contest the point.

                        Really fantastic work on this so far. Just watching the match gave me some memories of playing DOM-Sesmar. And the big one for me was this was really fun to watch. The action was constant, but it has real peaks and valleys and isn't just going 100% nonstop.

                        I do feel like the cap time here is a bit long (it took almost 5 minutes for one team to grab Aqua), but that can also be a consequence of the map design. Making it easier to transition to/from the cap area might reduce the time.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Wail View Post
                          I do feel like the cap time here is a bit long (it took almost 5 minutes for one team to grab Aqua), but that can also be a consequence of the map design. Making it easier to transition to/from the cap area might reduce the time.
                          Your probably right. Though there was that "****yeah" feeling of finally capping it. Need a lot of testing in this area

                          There was no team strat here, just running to the same node like mindless sheep Essentially a stalemate until a team makes a smarter play


                          What blue could've done, was send one guy to fort (half red 5 sec cap), make it neutral, force the far spawn. Then that one guy could rotate to aqua to help his team clean up. Leave one guy at aqua to cap, and split the group to Fort and Ruins (as we know they cant get to aqua now, but don't know if they will send the whole team to one point or split). Then rotate based on that outcome.
                          Last edited by TimEh; 02-21-2015, 11:30 AM.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Wail View Post
                            there's nothing preventing you from making a blueprint where you can adjust these values to your liking.
                            exactly. I made sure that it was super easy to modify the values. Making it insta cap is just setting cap time to 0, bypassing the neutral cap stuff (orig dom)

                            And the spawn system can be completely avoided by just not adding spawn groups to the map.


                            I'll release the BP's so people can make maps after I iron out a few more bugs and get a couple playtests in

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                              #15
                              Timeh great to see you back! I love your approach on this. I'm going to attempt to make a tdm map but also consider good node points so it can easily be converted for your game type.

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